Now I have seen it I cannot unsee it and it is obsessing me

I've recently finished a friendship with someone I've known for 20 years. Her constant refrain was 'I'll discuss this with you when you're not angry. I want you to meet my nice transwoman friend Angela. Have a cup of tea with her and then you'll understand there's nothing to worry about.'

It's like trying to discuss quantum physics with someone who failed their GCSE. There is no point. I've wished her well and said it's time for me to move on and if, one day, she suddenly sees what I see I'll be happy to talk to her. I regard her as one of those wartime collaborators who's sell out their village if it meant they got some sugar or the approval of the oppressors.

Strangely, I hear that since I told her it's over she's started reading some of the articles I've forwarded her over the last few years... I think sometimes when you politely, consciously dump people it can make them think.

Feeling very isolated here. So far within our families and friendships we seem to be the only ones who can see. When I have tentatively tried to discuss this, the response is either that transpeople are just a suppressed minority and we should "be kind" or plain lack of interest and denial, as in it's not really an issue, is it?

OP it's a nightmare isn't it. I saw it in early 2018 and obviously haven't unseen. Some people are not allowing themselves to see it.

Meeting other like minded women in the pub is definitely a good idea. There are various groups around the country.

One thing you can do is write to your mp and ask them to support the other mps who are starting to speak (or thank them if they have). They will have been sent a free copy of her joyces book by Sex Matters, so you could ask them to read it, or tell them a couple of policy issues that you think are important.

What made you realise something was up?

I’ve just bought The End of the World is Flat for myself, Nonny. It looks to be a brilliant satire on gender ideology.
What hooked me was Julie Bindel’s review on the back: “I laughed so hard, I nearly fell in my cauldron!”. Wonderful!

@JoodyBlue they also don’t want to be seen as bigoted. By agreeing wholeheartedly they run the risk of being ‘close minded’ and ‘unkind’.

Also, the belief of people being born in the wrong body and gender identity being scientific or akin to sexuality seems to be deeply ingrained and hard to shake. In my social group, anyway.

I think many people look the other way because they can't face what they are hearing. Someone close to me yesterday said "I can't cope with how angry you are about it". I said "you know why I am angry". He concurred but he didn't have the energy to engage. If people look this in the eye they have to act. It is why they don't. People head bury. It is fascinating and quite disturbing the lengths to which people do this I think.

I have told friends that their are women locked up with convicted rapists and they believe me, in some cases already knew, but they seem quite indifferent to it, even when they are agreeing it's wrong.
I can't cope when people don't mind these things, it's the passiveness.

I agree

I’m currently pregnant and have started following several antenatal exercise and physio accounts on Instagram

If I see one more post that addresses ‘pregnant people’…
All otherwise very sensible people as well…

Practical action calms me down. Stickers and leaflets, protest, go to talks. Reading about things and doing nothing with the rage is what breaks me.
I have to take breaks from it too.

This is the thread that brought me here in June because I was so surprised to hear the subject on the radio that I searched for it....
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4271412-Radio-4-Afternoon-Drama-blimey
I have been pretty much obsessed ever since after finding this space where women can talk freely (I had thought it was all nappies and cakes). But pretty devastated to find how bad things were (are) for women and children...
I sometimes despair that there is so little I can do, but now and then I feel a spark of hope that things might change...

*safety AND DIGNITY, that should say ✊🏼

What gives me a hope is that there is now proper resistance. MPs are speaking out, academics are sticking their heads above the parapet and writing measured, fair, well-written books on the subject, there are women's organisations that are campaigning and informing people, mainstream newspapers are hosting regular columns about the toxicity of cancel culture, the threat to free speech, and the erosion of women's safety and women's right to single sex spaces. So there is, finally, a conversation about this stuff.

The TRAs have tried so hard and largely succeeded thus far in shutting down any kind of discussion or debate, but debate is finally starting to happen. More and more people are realising what this means for them, their daughters, mothers, friends, female sport, and the safety of women everywhere - in hospitals, prisons and shelters, etc.

I also cut down my time reading this board and took myself off of Twitter as it was hurting my mental health, but since another discussion with friends I felt so totally at a loss, I’m back. (On here, at least, with a different name). It’s like I need to see rational thought as it doesn’t seem to exist anymore.

I dread to think what it will take for the issue to become mainstream enough for people to start questioning it more than just the usual knee jerk reaction. I think I’ve got some pretty depressing ideas though…

I know exactly how you feel. I’m in my early 30’s and people in my social group either think I’ve turned into a bigoted madwoman out of nowhere.

They are either at best naive or at worst wilfully ignorant.

Blessex I haven't read Material Girls, but I'd highly recommend reading Trans by Helen Joyce. It's very easy to read and covers the entire issue very well. It's an excellent introduction to the topic for anyone with an interest, especially if you find yourself asking 'but how did we get here?!'.

I'm going to gift someone 'The End of the World is Flat' this Christmas. They are a very science oriented person and have always been scathing about flat earthers so I'm hoping a fictional story will help pique their interest in the gender stuff.

It is very obsessing at first because of the dissonance of seeing society actually choosing to ignore the safety and well being of females over transitioned males.

It then becomes very apparent too, the tactics used to enable this progression.

There is a reason why you see activist style post on MN resorting to shaming posters, and gaslighting. They have nothing else to offer. The classic ‘you are a small group of hateful and noisy [insert slur of choice] and no one else agrees’ has thankfully been decreasing in use lately. Mainly due to the number of MN polls that continue to prove them wrong.

I expect that everyone who believes this is an issue will now bring it up on doorsteps whenever a politician arrives too.

In truth, I have not talked to one person who believes that women and girls should not have the right to choose the sex of their examiner and counsellor after rape, and should not have their own sports category and who believe a person who was male last year should be a women’s officer this year and so on.

When probed, those posters on MN who constantly shame others, also have limits on how far their activism extends. They just don’t like admitting it.

The level of awareness is growing quickly now in the greater population. And it will continue. The anger over ‘no debate’ and the gaslighting will take a very long time to get over though.

Yes, I know what you mean OP. I started talking about this (naively) at work a few years ago and got called a bigot, transphobe, homophobe etc. I was baffled that no one else appeared to be able to see what I saw. Now I know that some of those people who called me names are starting to have the scales fall from their eyes too, but it's a slow process.

I can't understand how intelligent, outspoken, apparently feminist women are going along with this utter fucking bullshit.

Thankfully I have a couple of friends I can talk about this stuff with, and DH gets it (kinda) but #bekind runs deep and women in particular are socialised to protect the so-called 'underdog'.

I think it was ?Gloria Steinem who said 'The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off'. I'm still at the pissed-off stage.

It's very strange.
I've always thought we were still a long way from equality, but the shift in gear and rhetoric in the last 5/10 years has taken me a bit by surprise. The tendrils of patriarchy were much deeper and more widespread than I had seen before. The refusal or reluctance to see the bigger picture is everywhere.
I don't find my view is a minority one though but I think my approach in talking with people is quite Socratic, most people just haven't really thought very hard about how men and women interact and their relative value in society.
It's difficult to reconcile the view of inclusion of marginalised communities as being part of an assault on women's hard won rights. But in many ways, it really is.
Keep reading!

me too! A few years ago I woke up when Bruce Jenner transitioned to Caitlin, I read an interview with him in The Guardian and started thinking about what it means to "feel like a woman" and the penny dropped.

I work in quite a "woke" environment where a lot of people put pronouns on signatures etc. I try to push back but it's hard!

I've found a local women's group that meets monthly in a pub, and we all vent together. That helps.

I know what you mean about left-leaning friends OP - it's as if they can't be both GC and socially conscious. Argh! My family get it - I educated my DSs, DH and DM and they're all as furious as I am - but so many female friends just nod and smile politely and I can see that they're either thinking 'What is she going on about?' or 'Oh God, my friend is a transphobe', which I'm not. Be whoever you want to be, but the safety of 51% of the world's population is more important that your feelings!

I feel the same. I see it everywhere and it makes me very very angry.

I'm the same op. 6 years ago I was very benign and 'live and let live'/'be kind' about it and then the Green Party started talking about men/non-men and I went down a rabbit hole too and here I am too. You're not alone!

I know what you mean , my children shut me down if I start any conversation, they have young children so it baffles me why they can't see the impact it may have . My friends also think I'm some kind of feminist obsessive . It's so depressing