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Original poster

This is why we can’t have nice things

55 replies

Ritascornershop · 11/10/2021 17:40

I’m in Canada where (for the most part) people are either blissfully unaware of what’s going on and/or are at pains to make sure no men have hurt feelings ever.

I got an email at work last week inviting the women on staff to a meeting once a week to discuss female biology as it relates to work (being pregnant, breastfeeding, menopausal etc at work). Next day comes a correction “all female-identifying staff”, a few hours later “and men, though we will be discussing women’s biology, so just if you’re comfortable with that!”

I email the sender for clarification (not that I needed it, I just wanted to say I wouldn’t attend a “women’s group” that had men in it). Email comes back saying all staff are welcome if they have “something to contribute”.

I mentioned this to my sister and she said “but women have fought to be included in things so we can’t now exclude men.” I said I wouldn’t presume to push into a men’s meeting about prostate cancer or beard care or erectile dysfunction or whatever, but she was firm that it would be unfair. I despair (& salute the strong British feminists and their common sense and sense of humour and outrage).

OP posts:
spotcheck · 11/10/2021 19:38

OP
Please go to the meeting and report back.

Original poster
Ritascornershop · 11/10/2021 19:36

Be kind is a warm, fuzzy cloak to throw over all kinds of grimy behaviour. So long as everyone parrots “be kind” they can say all kinds of appalling shit.

OP posts:
CreepingDeath · 11/10/2021 19:30

@shreddednips

But why would it be unfair to exclude men??? Why would they WANT to attend a meeting entirely to discuss issues that they have no experience of? Just like I won't be weeping and wailing and gnashing my teeth if I can't attend a group set up for men to discuss men's health issues.
Careful now, you're trying to apply logic - that doesn't do well in this particular topic.
shreddednips · 11/10/2021 19:26

But why would it be unfair to exclude men??? Why would they WANT to attend a meeting entirely to discuss issues that they have no experience of? Just like I won't be weeping and wailing and gnashing my teeth if I can't attend a group set up for men to discuss men's health issues.

CreepingDeath · 11/10/2021 19:12

I'm sorry OP, I'd say it will just prevent many women from attending, and those that do may feel too uncomfortable to come back again.
Which means that women who may be affected by those issues in the workplace will not get to have a say.

As to my sister, I don’t want to fall out with her. She knows men in women’s prisons, domestic violence shelters etc is wrong, but is very uncomfortable at the thought that when there are competing rights someone may feel left out. And god forbid men ever have FOMO.

I've encountered this perspective before - where people say of course men in women's sports, prisons etc. is wrong, but still TWAW because be kind Hmm.

TWAW and other be kind nonsense is the foundational lie that supports all the other bad stuff that is happening. Without that lie, men would not be in women's prisons, or sports teams, or changing rooms or anywhere else. It is the support system that enables all of that. I don't understand how they can chose to ignore that.

Original poster
Ritascornershop · 11/10/2021 19:09

Also, it’s just bloody awful in my part of Canada anyway. There’s a massive affordable housing crisis, a lot of toxic work cultures. I’m from here and I am not keen.

OP posts:
MildredsMussaurus · 11/10/2021 19:02

Why was their first thought trans women, not trans men & afab nb's who would benefit from the group?

Yes that was my thought. Surely being trans inclusive in this case would mean making it clear that female-bodied people, however they identified, felt they could come along!

MsFogi · 11/10/2021 19:01

Sadly very few women will attend and then your employer will say "Well we did offer it but no women turned up so clearly they don't need/want any support".

EyesOpening · 11/10/2021 18:59

They could word it "those who are, who have or who will" though, I meant so that men (male people!) aren't included, only women.

Manderleyagain · 11/10/2021 18:57

I thought you were going to say the first correction was 'sorry we didn't mean women, we meant all ppl who might experience menopause, pregnancy, menstruation...'. Changing it to all female-identified ppl and then men too is ridiculous. Why was their first thought trans women, not trans men & afab nb's who would benefit from the group? It's really weird.

andyoldlabour · 11/10/2021 18:56

KittenKong

"So the men will turn up and, what exactly?"

I agree, I am a bloke and I cannot think of any sane reason they would want to attend? As others have said, this would surely have the effect of deterring many women from attending.

Original poster
Ritascornershop · 11/10/2021 18:50

It is bloody awful! I haven’t seen any pushback: somehow the issues of a disproportionate number of First Nations women incarcerated, in shelters, involved in sex work is divorced here from a larger conversation about women’s rights. It’s very much divide and conquer imo.

I think a useful group wouldn’t just include women currently breastfeeding, in menopause, etc as women before those life stages and after could both learn and contribute. Men, and men who like to try to present as women, not so much.

OP posts:
SpindleWhirl · 11/10/2021 18:43

God I'm so glad to be a British female right now. It must be bloody awful in Canada.

Has there been any publicised push-back from First Nations women there, in a similar way to Maori women in New Zealand? (I appreciate that they are two hugely different populations.)

EyesOpening · 11/10/2021 18:39

I don't understand why the correction came back as “all female-identifying staff” instead of all those who are pregnant, breastfeeding, menopausal etc I'm sure they could have worded it in a better way to encompass the people it actually appertains to.

Artichokeleaves · 11/10/2021 18:31

We're going to have to go back to the 70s model and start polling women, anonymous questionaires, research, and prove all over again, the quality of female involvement, their equality of access, their ability to have their needs met is massively negatively affected by the presence of any male.

How the male identifies does not change that. The man feeling really sad about not being part of it also does not change that.

Increasingly I'm thinking the whole problem here is a lack of support for the male sex in coping with 'no'.

Original poster
Ritascornershop · 11/10/2021 18:28

I think, the current culture here being what it is, enough women will turn up and fidget and feel uncomfortable if men are there, and it’ll fizzle out. There’s been a pretty intense capture of feminism here.

OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 11/10/2021 18:27

The only thing to do is patiently point out, over and over, 'you are excluding females, from what is if we're honest a female thing to meet female need, so that you can include males. You are valuing and prioritising people by sex . This is male supremacism. Are you ok with that?'

Not many people are going to own that.

"Hi, our company has an open policy of male supremacism, come work for us!"

KittenKong · 11/10/2021 18:25

So the men will turn up and, what exactly?

Artichokeleaves · 11/10/2021 18:25

And what'll happen of course is that many women just won't go. And it will mostly be the ones who most need that help.

But never mind, because no one male is upset.

Original poster
Ritascornershop · 11/10/2021 18:23

Not that I think men have a right to be in women’s spaces, I didn’t word that very clearly. But enough people think that if you feel like a woman, you have a right to be there is what I meant.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ritascornershop · 11/10/2021 18:21

I can’t be arsed to set up a group at work as I’ll be quitting in the new year. Also I’m an underling, it’s very hierarchical, and it wouldn’t go anywhere. Additionally I wonder if I’d be allowed to have a women-only thing - everyone is at great pains not to be seen as “transphobic” (believing in biology, sex-based violence against women, etc).

As to my sister, I don’t want to fall out with her. She knows men in women’s prisons, domestic violence shelters etc is wrong, but is very uncomfortable at the thought that when there are competing rights someone may feel left out. And god forbid men ever have FOMO.

I think the initial idea was to be a support group for women’s issues in general. A few years ago I worked in another location of the same organization and one of the male staff left a handheld weight in a female staff member’s cubby with a note saying “you wanted a big one”. Then he took a photo of it at an angle where it looked like a penis and sent it to everyone. So issues beyond biology come up (he had to apologize, the boss was irate about it).

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 11/10/2021 18:19

Any man that actually turns up and thinks they have something to contribute is clearly signalling they are a grade A pillock.

I also can't believe that they said that men could come as long as they are comfortable! What about the comfort of the women who now have to discuss these personal topics in front of men and with all the potential negatives that carries.

It's all about centring the men 🙄

MassiveHoard · 11/10/2021 18:15

Ffs. Biological facts yield to ideological doctrine yet again. At the expense of any woman who doesn't want to discuss biological facts about her own body in front of men. Which is the point of the group. My brain hurts.

AnyOldPrion · 11/10/2021 18:11

That sounds maddening. I think I might be inclined to set up a women’s group of some sort. I wouldn’t really know where to start, but I’m sure there’d be people on here who could advise you. Doesn’t have to be about women. It could be a reading group, for example. But I think I’d want to try to do something.

Good luck Rita. Hope things start to change.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 11/10/2021 18:06

ffs. women talking about their biology is not a spectator sport for the entertainment of men