Sex/Gender Wars - What would be a win?

you could, yanno, talk to women like they were actual people rather than things in a petri dish. that would be nice OP

To me it’s not ‘winning’ because that makes it sound like a competition, like getting one over on trans people, and it is most definitely not about that. It’s about a return to sanity and science. I’d like Gender Ideology to disappear up its own bottom quite frankly because IMO it has little to do with genuinely trans people and glorifies regressive stereotypes.

Anyway, I’d like to see:

• The GRA amended so that trans people can have documents in their chosen gender but their long birth certificate remains unchanged and keeps their birth sex. That way they have privacy and the courtesy of largely being treated as the gender they wish, but the truth/their sex remains on record. This would make it easier where sex matters.

• Puberty blockers banned for children, counselling being the first treatment not affirmation, and transition/surgery banned for under 21s (really I think under 25s would be more sensible, but 21 is a compromise)

• Prisons, refuges and the like to be single sex. Extra facilities set up for trans people if needed.

• Crimes recorded correctly - by sex

• a return to the 70s/80s attitude where boys and girls could wear and do what they want without thinking they must be ‘trans’. I’d like this explicitly taught in schools.

• I’d like medical support for trans people with genuine dysphoria and support throughout their lives with specific medical issues. I’d also like support for detransitioners.

I think that ,for most women, it is not really a question of a win but rather not suffering a loss; the loss of our single sex spaces, our ability to describe ourselves and our right to be accurately counted and our particular physical needs to be taken into account. As for children, again it is that no child should suffer the loss of the right to be different, the loss of fertility and sexual fulfilment . There is no winning here as we are not fighting for something extra but rather, trying desperately to hang onto what little we already have.

This feels less like a discussion than a requirement to dance.

So at this point I'm out.

you have made lavish use of strike through - may I enquire what it is intended to convey?

although the post doesn't seem to make any sense and now I am puzzled

ha! unfortunate xpost, I take it all back!

The OP hasn't come back and engaged in debate then? How incredibly astonishing....

Any sign of that compromise yet, OP?

... it's not a football match.

Let's try applying standards of equality and care equally to male and female people, their inclusion, their needs, whether trans or not. Let's find answers that work for everyone.

And yes, to repeal the GRA. It should never have gone into law that someone can have a legal fiction of belonging to a group that they in fact do not, it has been proven to cause nothing but problems, and it opens all sorts of doors to many other problems. The original legal inequity it was created to fix no longer exists, it is not needed.

That's quite a few answers, maybe the OP would like to give an opinion now. You think a 'path to compromise exists' - what do you think it is?

“I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...”

Re: this, just proper, evidence based medical care that isn’t based on stereotypes and ladybrains.

Re: everything else, recognition that women need rights as a sex class, that this has nothing to do with gender, and that therefore there is a conflict of rights.

Recognition that ‘trans women are women’ makes the word ‘woman’ meaningless and that this is harmful.

End to dangerous claims about suicide.

People returning to a belief in science and biology would be best. I feel like I'm living in the age of Galileo, when he was forced to recant by the Inquisition his discovery that the earth was not the centre of the solar system.
Of course, genuinely gender dysphoric people should get the help they need and not be discriminated against, but women should not be forced to give up their spaces, real or metaphorical, to men who believe themselves to be women. Because most people do not share that faith.

Yes. Accurate statistics, medical records and not recording male crime as female. Forgot to add those.

I'd like single sex places to be kept single sex. With the introduction of 3rd spaces for people who want them/are happy to share with the opposite sex.

I'd like the words man and woman to retain their meaning.

I'd like people to be free to wear whatever they want regardless of their sex. Likewise hair styles. My son is not "a transgender bitch" because he has long hair. He's a boy with long hair.

• Repeal The GRA

• The rights of transgender people protected by amending the protected characteristic of sexual orientation to encompass presentation as well as sexual attraction.

• Accurate record-keeping by all official bodies.

• New paralympic categories for DSD athletes and post-op transwomen and men.

For the word women to mean born women only

That trans means trans women or trans men, but doesn't mean they actually change sex and can't mean TWAW or TMAM

That single sex spaces remain so, see above, you us the toilets facilities that you were born.

Or to make it more inclusive ALL toilets are single sex contained units, that can fit wheelchairs and buggies.

That clear words are used medically, people are categorised by their born sex, with a sub category which states which sex they would like to be referred as. Therefore all women would be called for a smear test and all men called for a prostate test.

STOP trying to push operations/medications on our children...those under 18yrs. Allow them to grow and get used to their changing bodies.

STOP the sexualisation of our children, mostly girls, so they don't feel the need to ditch their bodies to be comfortable.

Womens seats are for women
Men's seats are for men
Let's have trans seats for trans
Don't push aside women to make room for trans women

That would just about do it for me

No medical transition for under 18s.

Women's spaces returned to female only - hospital wards, prisons, changing areas, sports etc...

Public toilets I accept cannot be policed in some circumstances but I would like women to be able to call for help or report dodgy behaviour without fear of being criminalised. All this nonsense about not ever questioning who is in there needs to stop.

I want to be able to talk about women's rights without qualifiers or accusations.

I don't want to be forced (either legally or by the use of threat and fear) to pretend men are women when it's not in my best interests to do so.

but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN,

I'm interested in why you don't think a sensible path will be found on MN?

I wonder if you've actually read any threads on here - no one to my knowledge has ever said they want to deny adult transitioners access to healthcare or surgery - I'm curious as to how you got that notion.