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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex/Gender Wars - What would be a win?

185 replies

joolzfromyork · 08/10/2021 18:50

As the Title ...

What's a win? for you individually?

I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

It's reasonable to believe that the majority view falls somewhere between these two points ... but where?

There is no real consensus that has emerged which all GC people subscribe to ...

So, I wonder ... what's a win? what would make you believe that this issue had been solved/dealt with to your satisfaction ?

Anyone like to have a stab at this one?

The question involves no trickery, Honest opinions - however blunt - are sought (Hopefully the mods will adopt a light touch ...) but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN, I would like to understand better what people 'really' want, as distinct from what the loudest voices claim they want ... what do you want to happen?

Of course, since I am asking the question, it goes without saying that extra credit can be gained through the use of 'Flippancy' and 'Sarcasm' ... so, by all means, Have at it.

But if anyone could/would have a go at answering the question, I'd be grateful

OP posts:
teawamutu · 09/10/2021 10:52

@Artichokeleaves

Urgh, sorry, format fail. I'll repeat with spaces before people hurt their eyes.

OP, I can see that you probably came here to post this with good intentions.

Here’s the thing.

Your first post was classic of a type often seen on women’s boards from a new arrival: here’s a subject: discuss. You also made it clear after many women engaged that you were watching, waiting, wishing to have their replies laid out for you before you would explain to what purpose you wanted that information, what you would do with it and what you thought. Do you honestly not see what you communicated there about your belief in your greater power and superiority, and your belief about the lesser status of the women you wished to use for your purpose? Which they’d find out about when they’d made themselves vulnerable to you, and when you felt good and ready?

You’ve explained how you have kept your ability to have respect and empathy for female humans in your transition, and to treat them, for quite a lot of the time, as entitled to things like privacy and to not be afraid of you. And then your line: (waits for the slapping thats coming my way because I use the female toilets in my workplace) ….

Yeah, I’m done now. Sad

You signalled there, quite clearly, that after all the time you’ve taken to be nice to women that anyone having a problem with this is unreasonable. You’re also making it clear you’re aware of the problem for women with your choice, but hey ho. You are telling women here; clearly. You know you have all the power in this situation. Sometimes you will choose to respect their needs, because you’re a nice person. Sometimes you might not. The choice is yours and not theirs and you don’t expect them to be ungrateful.

I will get stick from other women on this thread that I am not being sufficiently appreciative that a male person has given women their valuable time and attention, has told us all about their effort to show some gestures towards respecting women, that they have told us what an unusually nice male person that they am, and that I should praise and encourage this as my role in ‘removing the toxicity’.

Thank you Master for not harming women as much as Karen White did. Thank you for choosing to indulge us and be nice to us from your position of power that you make sure we notice, because as you show; you could choose not to. I appreciate that you are a nice and probably well intentioned Master. But I am still operating the underground railroad to get every female I can out of this, and if I can burn down the plantation on the way I will, because I don’t want nice ownership. I want females to be seen as equally human and males to not see themselves as the owners of females, female spaces, female resources, the superior race for whom female lives and inclusion and rights are in their gift. And they might be generous if we’re lucky, or they might not.

How can you expect anything from me except a resounding Foxtrot Oscar?

I live in a world, right now, where I am expected to listen to male people (and their male centric female enablers) talk at length about how sex is complicated and not binary and endless obfustication to try and justify why they can be women if they want to – while at the same time requiring me to silently accept that they are telling me, over and over, with their actions, with their words, sex is binary, it’s a hierarchy and you lose . The whole ‘sex doesn’t exist’ bit is one sex forcing another into subordination. With gaslighting. And legal penalties for refusing to pretend something you don’t believe and which makes you speak aloud your own subordination, that just repeats again: ‘you have all the power, sir. I am in your hands.’

BOOM!

Fantastic post.

merrymouse · 09/10/2021 10:03

I think the stuff about puberty blockers is separate and relates to medical malpractice.

Artichokeleaves · 09/10/2021 10:02

[quote joolzfromyork]@Artichokeleaves

Ummmm ... OK

You think I have power? really ?

I am not signalling anything ... just answering questions that were asked (seems fair if I want others to offer an answer to my question).

When (or perhaps if) we interact again, let's hope for a more fruitful exchange eh ?[/quote]
No. Let's not.

I politely decline that head pat thanks.

And yes. You might not consciously realise it but you're making it very clear that you know you have all the power in this relationship with women. And on this board. That you've not just joined in as any other woman talking for an example.

merrymouse · 09/10/2021 10:02

For me, the crux of the problem is ‘trans women are women’

This phrase is used to render any talk of competing rights transphobic. It removes the language women need to talk about the rights, services and medical treatment they need because of sex, and imposes a gender identity that I don’t accept.

OP I don’t have to agree with you about which toilets you should use. We are both entitled to make our arguments. (And toilets really are at the bottom of the list of things I care about).

I do need language to make my argument.

WhatKatyDidNot · 09/10/2021 10:01

Replying for the women reading.

Full reinstatement of women's rights, which will include the disentanglement of sex and "gender" in all law and policy. Thus repeal of GRA at a bare minimum. The return of single sex spaces, services, sports.

It made clear by policy and all orgs and institutions that men must do the work of accepting their non conforming brethren.

Full reinstatement of child protection principles, which will include the end to permanent medical or surgical interventions in minors, the end to conversion therapy by so-called "transing away the gay", the removal of all propaganda material in schools.

A return to freedom of expression and policing by consent. No more participation by police in political events, no more recording of non crime hate incidents, the usual legal standard of "reasonable person" returned.

An end to the falsification of identity documents: passports, driving licences, birth certificates, DBS certificates.

I could do more, but that's off the top of my head.

titchy · 09/10/2021 09:45

When (or perhaps if) we interact again, let's hope for a more fruitful exchange eh ?

Why? What's the point. You're not saying much that MN would disagree with (though I notice the big ticket items you agree with us about are presumably not ones that effect you - you're not an Olympic standard athlete, a child seeking PBs, an incarcerated criminal, you merely use the ladies at work - and I'll bet none have challenged you.)

But there's really no point you posting here. There's nothing particularly new or controversial about your posts.

What would be truly enlightening is if you posted the same question to a group of TRAs. But I doubt you'll do that somehow. So you'll remain vaguely aware of how GCs are treated and you'll continue not to be a total arsehole, but you won't really engage with them or learn what real fear is.

Phobiaphobic · 09/10/2021 09:45

No medical transition for under 18s, to be replaced with watchful waiting as the vast majority of gender dysphoria resolves with puberty.

All women's spaces for women only, with third spaces provided for trans people who don't want to use the spaces for their own sex.

No male bodies in sport.

Return to using sex-based language such as women.

No penalties, social or otherwise, to people who wish to speak the truth about sex is a binary and so on.

Severe penalties for universities and other bodies that don't rigorously uphold free speech.

Stonewall disbanded in favour of an institution that actually upholds rather than undermines gay rights.

Any prizes, etc designed as women only actually only for biological women.

Society at large to be fully aware of the issue of ideological capture and it's impact, with measures put in place to try to minimise the chances of this insanity ever happening again - particularly involving regulation of social media corporations.

Thelnebriati · 09/10/2021 09:32

Look again at your thread title, and ask yourself why 50% of humanity is permanently engaged in war. Often against the other 50%.

joolzfromyork · 09/10/2021 09:29

@Artichokeleaves

Ummmm ... OK

You think I have power? really ?

I am not signalling anything ... just answering questions that were asked (seems fair if I want others to offer an answer to my question).

When (or perhaps if) we interact again, let's hope for a more fruitful exchange eh ?

OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 09/10/2021 08:26

Urgh, sorry, format fail. I'll repeat with spaces before people hurt their eyes.

OP, I can see that you probably came here to post this with good intentions.

Here’s the thing.

Your first post was classic of a type often seen on women’s boards from a new arrival: here’s a subject: discuss. You also made it clear after many women engaged that you were watching, waiting, wishing to have their replies laid out for you before you would explain to what purpose you wanted that information, what you would do with it and what you thought. Do you honestly not see what you communicated there about your belief in your greater power and superiority, and your belief about the lesser status of the women you wished to use for your purpose? Which they’d find out about when they’d made themselves vulnerable to you, and when you felt good and ready?

You’ve explained how you have kept your ability to have respect and empathy for female humans in your transition, and to treat them, for quite a lot of the time, as entitled to things like privacy and to not be afraid of you. And then your line: (waits for the slapping thats coming my way because I use the female toilets in my workplace) ….

Yeah, I’m done now. Sad

You signalled there, quite clearly, that after all the time you’ve taken to be nice to women that anyone having a problem with this is unreasonable. You’re also making it clear you’re aware of the problem for women with your choice, but hey ho. You are telling women here; clearly. You know you have all the power in this situation. Sometimes you will choose to respect their needs, because you’re a nice person. Sometimes you might not. The choice is yours and not theirs and you don’t expect them to be ungrateful.

I will get stick from other women on this thread that I am not being sufficiently appreciative that a male person has given women their valuable time and attention, has told us all about their effort to show some gestures towards respecting women, that they have told us what an unusually nice male person that they am, and that I should praise and encourage this as my role in ‘removing the toxicity’.

Thank you Master for not harming women as much as Karen White did. Thank you for choosing to indulge us and be nice to us from your position of power that you make sure we notice, because as you show; you could choose not to. I appreciate that you are a nice and probably well intentioned Master. But I am still operating the underground railroad to get every female I can out of this, and if I can burn down the plantation on the way I will, because I don’t want nice ownership. I want females to be seen as equally human and males to not see themselves as the owners of females, female spaces, female resources, the superior race for whom female lives and inclusion and rights are in their gift. And they might be generous if we’re lucky, or they might not.

How can you expect anything from me except a resounding Foxtrot Oscar?

I live in a world, right now, where I am expected to listen to male people (and their male centric female enablers) talk at length about how sex is complicated and not binary and endless obfustication to try and justify why they can be women if they want to – while at the same time requiring me to silently accept that they are telling me, over and over, with their actions, with their words, sex is binary, it’s a hierarchy and you lose . The whole ‘sex doesn’t exist’ bit is one sex forcing another into subordination. With gaslighting. And legal penalties for refusing to pretend something you don’t believe and which makes you speak aloud your own subordination, that just repeats again: ‘you have all the power, sir. I am in your hands.’

Artichokeleaves · 09/10/2021 08:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 23:26

Sorry joolz missed your things you want post.

Much of it is aok.

Thing is. That's not what's being demanded is it. So what anyone thinks of your personal views is an interesting conversation but in the end nothing to do with the demands that have already been met (in the background quietly) and the further demands now.

You say you get flack from both sides. I'm sure you do!

Others feel as you do. Other trans people. Has there been any noise about organising? Supporting each other online? Having your own space to talk? Getting stuck in as a group rather than as individuals?

PickAChew · 08/10/2021 23:17

And joolz I have no issue with your attitude. Can't say the same for a lot of activists.

As for York, visited with severely autistic Ds2, a few years back. Spent an hour searching for a working disabled loo when his pad was sodden. Eventually found one after several laps of Brown's. I can guarantee that if we visited again, the disabled loo situation would be just as shit.

PickAChew · 08/10/2021 23:11

A win?

No coercion of people in vulnerable positions, whether that is children persuaded they need invasive and/or harmful medical intervention or women having their private spaces invaded by males. Also, it turns out, young gay women and men have been having their sexual boundaries ignored. Just no.

catzwhiskas · 08/10/2021 22:50

No not prepared to compromise anything that affects women and children adversely . So it’s a no to any men, with or without penis/ certificate who wish to access in particular prisons, hospital beds, changing rooms. Let’s repeal the GRA and stop saying TWAW and TMAM. Revert to the sex of offenders and crimes committed . Recognise the harm that this ideology has done to women and girls.

LobsterNapkin · 08/10/2021 22:49

Should say not trying to pass, above.

LobsterNapkin · 08/10/2021 22:48

I think a lot of people would be happy with something like what you suggest joolz. They might have specific tweaks but the basic sense seems like a good start. And that is here on MN so I don't think you'd find people overall would be hugely adverse.

It seems to be the TRAs have really overplayed their hand and there is a very high chance now that they will end up with much less than that.

That being said, I'm very much with AnyOld. We can't talk about a bunch of legal and administrative solutions being the answer, because it's really a problem about ideas and about health and about medicine. The best outcome would be to gain real insights into the origins of severe sex dysphoria in adults and prevent it and find treatments to resolve it where it occurs. For people to feel comfortable in their own body, without drugs, trying to pass (or not pass) as the other sex, without surgery, is what we should want.

None of the real psychological or physical research tells us there are a class of people who are innately trans, so if we use that way of thinking as a model, it's not going to turn out well for the people actually involved. It will be harmful to them and it won't be the best outcome they could hope for. As for people who are GNC in terms of clothing or interests or just whether they feel like they enjoy femininity or masculinity, medicalising that is crazy.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 22:45

The issues most are worried about are... Broader? Thinking about consequences that are not you know. Bogs. And I can't see why anyone would be against an adult having cosmetic surgery. They might have opinions as many do with all sorts of cosmetic surgery. And NHS resources are a big topic full stop.

The things I'd be really interested to hear your views on are-

  1. The redefinition of woman girl. Also female is going at the moment. The argument is that's not a problem in any way. That woman girl has never meant sex anyway (do you believe that?).
Do you feel there's any issues with having no words available to refer to... People with vaginas as a distinct group? That's 3 billion people or so. As a group in terms of issues needs oppression atrocities etc? How do you feel about terms like people with cervixes? Do you feel happy with eg. People with vaginas in Afghanistan banned from working?
  1. The largely promoted idea that. Internal gender ID is the parameter that anything split (previously) by sex should go by. Gender presentation is unrelated to gender ID. Anyone in women's facilities should be assumed to be in the right place. IF they do anything illegal then they can be reported afterwards.

I mean there's more but that's a couple of important ones.

Twelveshoes · 08/10/2021 22:42

A win for me would be if we started discussing women’s rights again in a way that actually acknowledged that women have bodies and are not some kind of AI.

So we could actually look at women’s situations in a holistic way.

All the rest is not a win but just reinstating basic rights.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 22:24

[quote joolzfromyork]@Nondescriptname

Transmen who pass, and transwomen, to use the men's ...

But that's not what people are arguing for is it?

Transmen who pass? really ? whos gonna make that call? and under what circumstances ?
How would the biological reality be proved ? over and again? What about Transmen who don't pass? who says so ?

so many questions ...[/quote]
This has all been covered on multiple threads.

Let's talk about prisons instead.

What are your thoughts joolz?

In general.

You I'm sure would say that transitioned trans people should go to relevant one they have transitioned to.

(Putting aside the fact this is not how it is. Transition/ GRC not required).

Do you think TM should go to male prison. Because they are men and it would be cruel not to?

Thelnebriati · 08/10/2021 22:23

A win for me will be everyone recognising that equality and human rights legislation needs to be upheld; not written off, or rewritten to suit an agenda.

It is absolutely beyond the pale that a movement that calls itself a human rights movement has been able to do so much damage to the rights of women.

Dismantling the legislation that protects us all is not a win.

teawamutu · 08/10/2021 22:22

@titchy

OP why post? None of what you've said is acceptable particularly contradicts what GC women want by and large. You seem to agree.

Have you posted on a TRA forum (on Reddit or Twitter) asking what they would regard as a win, what they would compromise on?

This is a genuinely interesting question. Whenever I ask I'm howled down as an evil Terf, I wonder if it'd get more consideration from a member of the community?
334bu · 08/10/2021 22:22

Thank you for your candour joolz. Unfortunately your consideration of women's rights is not one held by many who are demanding that women change the language they use to describe themselves and open up their spaces to people of the opposite sex.

titchy · 08/10/2021 22:22

@Nondescriptname

That single sex spaces remain so, see above, you use the toilets facilities that you were born.

Transmen who pass, and transwomen, to use the men's - in instances where toilets are shared spaces with cubicles.

I don't think that's an accepted GC view tbh. Trans men in male prisons for example - just no. They're female and on the whole much weaker and more vulnerable.
MrsFin · 08/10/2021 22:15

A win for me would be acceptance that trans women are not women, and never can be. And transmen are not men.