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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex/Gender Wars - What would be a win?

185 replies

joolzfromyork · 08/10/2021 18:50

As the Title ...

What's a win? for you individually?

I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

It's reasonable to believe that the majority view falls somewhere between these two points ... but where?

There is no real consensus that has emerged which all GC people subscribe to ...

So, I wonder ... what's a win? what would make you believe that this issue had been solved/dealt with to your satisfaction ?

Anyone like to have a stab at this one?

The question involves no trickery, Honest opinions - however blunt - are sought (Hopefully the mods will adopt a light touch ...) but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN, I would like to understand better what people 'really' want, as distinct from what the loudest voices claim they want ... what do you want to happen?

Of course, since I am asking the question, it goes without saying that extra credit can be gained through the use of 'Flippancy' and 'Sarcasm' ... so, by all means, Have at it.

But if anyone could/would have a go at answering the question, I'd be grateful

OP posts:
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 10/10/2021 10:46

Joolz, you sound nice and reasonable. You know that women are not trying to make life harder for men who are unhappy with their body, and their sex. By all means wear whatever feels feminine to you, present yourself as you like. If men make you feel uncomfortable, join forces with sympathetic men for safety in numbers.

Coping with the risk of male aggression is part of women’s everyday life. You are no worse off. We don’t make a big thing of it because we grew up with it, it’s as familiar as the weather. We adapt so we don’t even notice that we chose this well-lit route home rather than that more convenient but darker one.

Any man intruding into a women’s space immediately makes all those spaces risky for women. Your harmless intentions are irrelevant. Your presence has allowed other men in. You have already whittled a bit away from our safety and therefore from our freedom.

Jaysmith71 · 10/10/2021 10:32

The problem with the 'war' analogy is that war is always a negative sum; everybody loses, but one side prevails. We should not want that.

There is another discourse that sees a zero-sum game: One side's gain can only come from the other's loss.

We need to think of a positive-sum outcome; let's all agree that reality is real and everyone deserves respect for being what they are, really.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 10/10/2021 10:28

Any ‘compromise’ means women having to give up some of our rights. So it’s not meeting half-way, it’s just trying to negotiate how much of what is ours we will be allowed to keep. We lose in every outcome.

Because we are not demanding anything from men. We get no benefit from anything about genderism. (Teenage girls’ fear of growing up to be women, in a world disfigured by violent porn, is not relieved by taking testosterone.)

Why should we agree to any loss? Whether it’s a loss of privacy, of safety, of sporting achievements, of roles or awards — these are all things our foremothers earned for themselves and for us.

These are not privileges. They do not give us an advantage over men, but help to reduce the advantage men have over us.

A win would be men accepting that women aren’t some strange and magical Other that exists for men’s sexual enjoyment. We are simply human beings with a few biological differences from men.

A win would be men accepting the fact that humans cannot change sex or be ‘born in the wrong body’. And accepting that men are not and never can become women of any kind.

We are not trying to gain anything from men here. A win would be simply not having to give up any of our rights.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 10/10/2021 09:53

what an amazing post from ArtichokeLeaves at 8.26 on 8 October

I noted that when the OP finally replied to questions, the response was very, 'I'll let women have some spaces, but there must be some special men always allowed to enter them'

that's not freedom, it's the master's indulgence. and the OP clearly can't understand that. It's not surprising, as the OP didn't grow up as a girl dealing with the sea of misogyny. disappointing but not surprising, as ever

Datun · 09/10/2021 14:02

Yes to Artichokes whatkatydid and highame for starters.

I obviously wasn't the only one whose instant opinion of the op was borne out fairly quickly.

And personally, If I had my way, I would ignore, for the time being, the results of transgenderism and go straight for the cause.

Until we find out why this ideology is being forced on people, who it benefits, and why our children are being instructed in it, tackling the results piecemeal is just looking at the symptoms.

What makes men want to identify as women? Whether it's rejection of being male, or a sexual fetish.

To me, the answer to that question would instantly make people challenge the results we are seeing. All of them.

What makes young girls desperate to escape womanhood?

Again, tackling that, would, to me, make accommodating their transition something that people would be very wary of indeed.

I absolutely agree that the results of this ideology need addressing, but that is being hampered with stalling, going round in circles, talks of civil rights and deliberate obfuscation. Which will continue until people are clear about the reasons they are there in the first place.

Very many women are getting highly pissed off with becoming involved in conversations about whether they should or should not have rights, where those rights begin and end, how they manifest and how many men agree with them.

No.

Let's throw all the money, time and resources and ask the question why are people saying they're transgender?

Instead of just assuming that it's completely accepted and being told to deal with the consequences.

merrymouse · 09/10/2021 13:50

So, I asked a question ... that's all ... you wanna help me with this?

If you are genuinely interested there are books that you can read:

Trans: Helen Joyce
Material Girls: Kathleen Stock

Both are about Gender Ideology and it's impact

Invisible Women: Caroline Criado Perez

Practical impact of ignoring women and their different needs in policy, legislation, product manufacture and medicine.

I think you have received plenty of replies from people who have tried to explain their position. You don't seem to disagree with many of the opinions expressed.

I don't see how there can be any resolution if it can't be accepted that there is a conflict of rights. However, it is not in the power of anyone on this board to change policy at Stonewall etc.

Happy reading.

joolzfromyork · 09/10/2021 13:35

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Sorry, but I'm a little (alot) distracted today by reading another thread on MN

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4369042-what-s-the-strangest-thing-you-have-been-told-off-for-at-work?pg=1&messages=100

Which perfectly shows the insecurity of an average boss ... its by turns kinda tragic and also really Funny at the same time.

However, I digress

Whatever are you talking about?

All I did was ask a question ... Then tried (honestly) to answer questions posed to me in return.

I have no interest in educating anyone other than myself. (and the idea of myself as a superior intellect - self ascribed or otherwise is really very funny Smile)

So, I asked a question ... that's all ... you wanna help me with this?

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 09/10/2021 13:25

Artichokes is spot on.

There is never a different style from such posters who come here convinced that FWR is a gaping maw of education deficit on this topic that can be saved by the faux tolerance of a self-ascribed superior intellect.

Nondescriptname · 09/10/2021 13:22

I don't support the 'right' of any and all men who choose being legally recognised as female.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 09/10/2021 13:01

Goady, much? You are looking at the question the wrong way round, OP. GC feminists are fully supportive of transgender people’s human rights. We simply wish to deny them the “extra” right of entering opposite sex spaces on the basis of self ID. Our remit is the safeguarding of women’s and children’s rights.

This.

highame · 09/10/2021 12:53

Thanks for adding that merrymouse. There are many issues but I would like to see a Public Enquiry, especially if this edifice crumbles. It has been important enough for us to ask for answers and expect to get them.

merrymouse · 09/10/2021 12:36

Is that something (Public Enquiry) you would campaign for ? Is this a GC mainstream idea or just idle thought on your part ?

As far as I understand organisations like Women's Place and Fair Play for Women have been campaigning for more transparency and evidence based policy for years. Sport England have just published the results of their enquiry into trans participation in Sport, but this was immediately rejected by Stonewall with no evidence or research to explain why.

You are never going to be able to have one public enquiry that settles any matter that relates to rights once and for all because it's an issue that is always evolving. For instance the pandemic has had a huge effect on rights and equality. I also don't see how a public enquiry can be binding. It is just an investigation of a situation as it stands at the current time. Only legislation is binding and that can be changed.

Women will just always need to be able to talk about sex and its consequences.

However the biggest barrier to having a public enquiry at the moment is that many of the opposition parties support policies that suggest it is transphobic to even recognise a conflict of rights, and many public bodies don't collect statistics that could inform evidence based policy - e.g. sex of people who commit crimes. A great deal of energy and resources were required just to ensure that sex was recorded in the last census. Somebody else can confirm, but I don't this issue has been settled in Scotland.

So no, when we talk about the need for more information and research, that isn't just idle talk.

If you want to learn more about the lack of sex based data and how that relates to Women's Rights, you should read 'Invisible Women' by Caroline Criado Perez.

highame · 09/10/2021 12:20

I would campaign for this but I would need to be sure that the parameters, the balance of who gave evidence and that everything was questioned rigorously. Too often glossing over the surface has become a part of this debate. I refer to the Judiciary, the media, the Politicians, the educators. All bear responsibility and I want to see them questioned in front of a public enquiry.

Not an idle thought on my part, my thinking on this subject is never idle. I don't believe this is part of current GC thinking or campaigning but the mess we are currently in, means it may be the only thing that can save us, from what's happening in the US because we seem to be importing a shed load of their shit think

joolzfromyork · 09/10/2021 12:08

@highame

A Statutory Public Enquiry would be my idea of a win.

An Enquiry that looked at how our democracy has been undermined, that looked at evidence of the effects of legislation including the GRA, the effects of any future legislation, that looked at the impartiality or lack in our public services and its impact on women and girls. I would also want the enquiry to look at Trans-healthcare using real evidence and a look at how trans-rights could be enhanced without affecting women adversely. I would want a real in-depth look at language and its impact especially on women and girls.

There's lots more I would want to include but it would be out in the open, no hiding and the lies and obfuscation shown for what they are. Then if this enquiry finds women's rights are not being trampled on and there are no adverse effects, then I would, (so long as I had trust and it was all public) bow to the conclusions. However, I would expect all trans-rights activists, Stonewall, Caroline Noakes et all to also abide by the decisions.

That is interesting ...

I think that I and many people like me would find that idea to be a positive step forward.

I'm never too sure about the language thing ... people will say they are trying to be inclusive by using terms like 'Birth Parent' and 'Chest Feeding' ... But it never sounds inclusive to me.

But maybe that's just me ...

Question (feel free to ignore if you prefer)

Is that something (Public Enquiry) you would campaign for ? Is this a GC mainstream idea or just idle thought on your part ?

I particularly like the idea that such a 'Enquiry' would be binding on all parties.

Thanks for that

OP posts:
ComprehensiveTea · 09/10/2021 11:58

@timeisnotaline

Everyone’s said it all- science sanity and factual data, with safety for women. Honestly I would also happily add that any man who has sexually assaulted a woman with his penis is not permitted to transition and identify as a woman. The consequences of people’s actions can limit their future choices and I’d vote for this to be such a case.
any man who has sexually assaulted a woman with his penis is not permitted to transition and identify as a woman

yeah. so much this. I wouldn't even add "with his penis". Rape and sexual assault to disqualify any man to "identify as" a woman, always, no matter what weapon is used.

highame · 09/10/2021 11:47

A Statutory Public Enquiry would be my idea of a win.

An Enquiry that looked at how our democracy has been undermined, that looked at evidence of the effects of legislation including the GRA, the effects of any future legislation, that looked at the impartiality or lack in our public services and its impact on women and girls. I would also want the enquiry to look at Trans-healthcare using real evidence and a look at how trans-rights could be enhanced without affecting women adversely. I would want a real in-depth look at language and its impact especially on women and girls.

There's lots more I would want to include but it would be out in the open, no hiding and the lies and obfuscation shown for what they are. Then if this enquiry finds women's rights are not being trampled on and there are no adverse effects, then I would, (so long as I had trust and it was all public) bow to the conclusions. However, I would expect all trans-rights activists, Stonewall, Caroline Noakes et all to also abide by the decisions.

somethinginoffensive · 09/10/2021 11:38

@Artichokeleaves

Urgh, sorry, format fail. I'll repeat with spaces before people hurt their eyes.

OP, I can see that you probably came here to post this with good intentions.

Here’s the thing.

Your first post was classic of a type often seen on women’s boards from a new arrival: here’s a subject: discuss. You also made it clear after many women engaged that you were watching, waiting, wishing to have their replies laid out for you before you would explain to what purpose you wanted that information, what you would do with it and what you thought. Do you honestly not see what you communicated there about your belief in your greater power and superiority, and your belief about the lesser status of the women you wished to use for your purpose? Which they’d find out about when they’d made themselves vulnerable to you, and when you felt good and ready?

You’ve explained how you have kept your ability to have respect and empathy for female humans in your transition, and to treat them, for quite a lot of the time, as entitled to things like privacy and to not be afraid of you. And then your line: (waits for the slapping thats coming my way because I use the female toilets in my workplace) ….

Yeah, I’m done now. Sad

You signalled there, quite clearly, that after all the time you’ve taken to be nice to women that anyone having a problem with this is unreasonable. You’re also making it clear you’re aware of the problem for women with your choice, but hey ho. You are telling women here; clearly. You know you have all the power in this situation. Sometimes you will choose to respect their needs, because you’re a nice person. Sometimes you might not. The choice is yours and not theirs and you don’t expect them to be ungrateful.

I will get stick from other women on this thread that I am not being sufficiently appreciative that a male person has given women their valuable time and attention, has told us all about their effort to show some gestures towards respecting women, that they have told us what an unusually nice male person that they am, and that I should praise and encourage this as my role in ‘removing the toxicity’.

Thank you Master for not harming women as much as Karen White did. Thank you for choosing to indulge us and be nice to us from your position of power that you make sure we notice, because as you show; you could choose not to. I appreciate that you are a nice and probably well intentioned Master. But I am still operating the underground railroad to get every female I can out of this, and if I can burn down the plantation on the way I will, because I don’t want nice ownership. I want females to be seen as equally human and males to not see themselves as the owners of females, female spaces, female resources, the superior race for whom female lives and inclusion and rights are in their gift. And they might be generous if we’re lucky, or they might not.

How can you expect anything from me except a resounding Foxtrot Oscar?

I live in a world, right now, where I am expected to listen to male people (and their male centric female enablers) talk at length about how sex is complicated and not binary and endless obfustication to try and justify why they can be women if they want to – while at the same time requiring me to silently accept that they are telling me, over and over, with their actions, with their words, sex is binary, it’s a hierarchy and you lose . The whole ‘sex doesn’t exist’ bit is one sex forcing another into subordination. With gaslighting. And legal penalties for refusing to pretend something you don’t believe and which makes you speak aloud your own subordination, that just repeats again: ‘you have all the power, sir. I am in your hands.’

Wow! This bears reading and thinking about, am going to digest it.
timeisnotaline · 09/10/2021 11:38

Everyone’s said it all- science sanity and factual data, with safety for women. Honestly I would also happily add that any man who has sexually assaulted a woman with his penis is not permitted to transition and identify as a woman. The consequences of people’s actions can limit their future choices and I’d vote for this to be such a case.

ComprehensiveTea · 09/10/2021 11:27

The "No debate!!!!!!!" mandate becoming dead in the water would be a good start, also the accusation of transphobia!!!!!!! whenever women start talking about their rights.
And having everything coming back to TWAW, and if you don't accept that as a truth, then you're a bigot.
I'd like to see the acceptance that sex does matter, and it does matter rather a lot in some circumstances. (And that sex IS binary.)

Mymapuddlington · 09/10/2021 11:24

All children are raised and boys or girls depending on if they have a penis or not. They can play with dolls or trucks etc and it’s classed as personality and not a reason to change their gender.
If you’re 25+ and want to change your gender you pay for your own treatment.

To me it seems like attention seeking madness at the moment.

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 09/10/2021 11:23

@BreatheAndFocus

To me it’s not ‘winning’ because that makes it sound like a competition, like getting one over on trans people, and it is most definitely not about that. It’s about a return to sanity and science. I’d like Gender Ideology to disappear up its own bottom quite frankly because IMO it has little to do with genuinely trans people and glorifies regressive stereotypes.

Anyway, I’d like to see:

  • The GRA amended so that trans people can have documents in their chosen gender but their long birth certificate remains unchanged and keeps their birth sex. That way they have privacy and the courtesy of largely being treated as the gender they wish, but the truth/their sex remains on record. This would make it easier where sex matters.
  • Puberty blockers banned for children, counselling being the first treatment not affirmation, and transition/surgery banned for under 21s (really I think under 25s would be more sensible, but 21 is a compromise)
  • Prisons, refuges and the like to be single sex. Extra facilities set up for trans people if needed.
  • Crimes recorded correctly - by sex
  • a return to the 70s/80s attitude where boys and girls could wear and do what they want without thinking they must be ‘trans’. I’d like this explicitly taught in schools.
  • I’d like medical support for trans people with genuine dysphoria and support throughout their lives with specific medical issues. I’d also like support for detransitioners.
I was going to post similar but I saw this post first. So all of this! I would also add introduction of third/neutral spaces in addition to single sex not instead of, and open categories for sport. There might have been allowance in the past for TW to go into the ladies, and changing rooms etc. Unfortunately a whole cohort followed who demanded this too just because they felt like it and have therefore ruined it for everyone - because no one in charge had the spine to say no. So no.

Sports wise, you can play with your own sex or the open categories. Plenty of opportunities to compete.

None of these actions are preventing trans/NB etc people to take part in daily life, thought I doubt some would see it that way. Nothing but complete removal of all boundaries and nothing but affirmation would do. Even just one of the above points would result in screams of transphobia.

bonbonours · 09/10/2021 11:19

A scientific approach to people (especially children) who identify as trans, based on looking at their whole life experience and what may be causing their dysphoria rather than immediately assuming they are definitely and permanently trans. Schools teaching watchful waiting and encouraging children to go against stereotypes without assuming they are in the wrong body if they do so.

Single sex spaces being maintained by law, but ideally third spaces (usable by either sex no matter how they identify) being available to anyone that wants them for changing, toilets etc.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 09/10/2021 11:15

Pressed Post too soon!

I also think Artichokes is spot on, too.

That post was dynamite!

Ameanstreakamilewide · 09/10/2021 11:15

I also think Artichokes is spot on, too.

That pos

Ameanstreakamilewide · 09/10/2021 11:13

Among lots of things already mentioned, i'd like to see Stonewall and all its insidious 'capture' of public organisations dead in the water.

And that includes the downright dangerous Champion Index thing.