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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is anyone else struggling with the obvious unfairness of this issue

137 replies

Fariha31 · 06/10/2021 08:29

I am begining to find the obvious unfairness of how woman are being treated, combined with the seemingly universality of the voices going along with it, is begining to affect my mental health?
I dont know if its triggering things from my past or if its just the insanity of this moment but I am wondering how other people are copping with all this?

OP posts:
Spiindoctor · 06/10/2021 16:27

The transwomen in sport absolutely did it for me - thank heavens it looks like common sense might eventually prevail but it meant I lost any remaining sliver of respect I had for those in authority, the educated elite in academia, in government, the media, I mean what snivelling cowards. I'll never trust them again.

NecessaryScene · 06/10/2021 16:14

It all gives me hope.

If we're doing inspirational lists of people to be grateful for, this was quite good, but it's a bit out-of-date. Many, many new faces in the fight since mid-2018.

We've come a long way.

The "thankyou roll" of State Media's Gender Ideology (end of 2020) is also good, but you'll have to put names to faces yourself...

NecessaryScene · 06/10/2021 16:04

Oh look, first two links on Google if you type in 'sex is a spectrum'

Google is indeed massively pushing this. Whether internally, or via external people gaming it, I don't know.

I suggest DuckDuckGo.

First three there in a private window are:

Is Sex A Spectrum? (Andy Lewis, GC)

Visualizing Sex as a Spectrum (SciAm infographic nonsense)

Is sex a spectrum? Or is sex binary? (Fair Play for Women)

In a non-private window I get

"Sex is a Spectrum!" - The Gender Critical inserted at number two, among those three.

That seems pretty good - you've got the offending article, and things criticising it.

averylongtimeago · 06/10/2021 15:47

You are not the only one feeling like this.
My mum was refused her own bank account in the '60's (she was divorced) without a male guarantor. Until 1970 women did not own their own wages or inheritance - all belonged to the husband. At school in the 70's I was told girls could not study science at A level unless they got grade A at O level - no such restrictions on the boys. At my first professional job interview (1980) I was asked if I had my husband's permission to have a career.

Gradually the law and society changed until by the late '90s my daughter and her friends could not believe how things used to be.

Yet here we are. At the point where we cannot even name ourselves as women.

RealhousewifeofBarnardCastle · 06/10/2021 14:50

@PankhurstConnection well said
I don’t see why this would be deleted, if it is I’ll be pissed off too

PankhurstConnection · 06/10/2021 14:39

@Helleofabore

I think that most of these threads get deleted sadly. Any time anyone starts discussing how it makes them feel or the events causing them to form their opinion, it tends to get deleted.

You are not alone though OP

And this is shocking in itself - why are WE not allowed to say how this makes us feel? How it affects OUR mental health? There is a great deal of talk about feelings in other discussions, feelings lead to our words being policed, suspensions and bans but heaven forbid we should express the toll this takes on our mental health daily. FTR it has really affected me, it is why I am on here less, why I have to take breaks from it. REALLY seeing what this world thinks of women can make me feel desperate some days and yes, I have wondered if it is all worth it. If this thread is taken down like the last one I will be beyond angry about it.

The gender ideology issue, the dehumanising of women by taking away our words or referring to us by body parts or functions, the women being killed, the absolute shambolic misogynistic, violent so called 'sex industry' and the apologists working hard to gaslight us about the lot of it can be overwhelming sometimes and we should be able to talk to one another about that on a website which is predominantly for women.

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 14:38

@RealhousewifeofBarnardCastle

To add to your list -
Murray, Blackburn and MacKenzie
Joanna Cherry
Joan McAlpine
Allison Bailey
For Women Scotland
Fair Play for Women
Keep Prisons Single Sex
Birdy Rose
And all the Women ribboning, stickering, slating, signing petitions, writing to their elected representatives, fundraising etc etc.

It all gives me hope.

TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 14:27

And there is no operation that can change your biological sex - it is in every cell of your body...

I think we're all in raging agreement that sex is not a spectrum.

The argument that sex is a spectrum has taken hold in a surprising number of places and has a lot of scientists pushing it. This doesn't make it true. It is plain that it is confusing the public. It may even be messing with people's understanding of informed consent when they're having gender reassignment/affirmation surgery that is also known as SRS.

RealhousewifeofBarnardCastle · 06/10/2021 14:24

I’m really despairing about it too

I’m old and knackered and really fucking angry

I’m contributing to crown funders (Allison Bailey, unruly women at Bristol uni), I support the organisation Sex Matters

sex-matters.org/

I challenge bullshit where I hear it, including with my teenage children.

And it will change my vote - I won’t vote labour while Starmer thinks men have cervixes. Otoh Raab is a twat too. Don’t get me started on the Greens.

But I am scared to post what I think on Twitter or other social media in case I’m threatened.

It’s a depressing time to be a woman but thank god for

JK Rowling
Maya Forstater
Jess Phillips
JaniceTurner
Jenni Murray
The feminists at Bristol uni’s unruly women group
Rosie Duffield
Liz Truss
Posie Parker

And all those challenging the vile misogyny and doublespeak out there

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 14:20

Oh look, first two links on Google if you type in 'sex is a spectrum' -

massivesci.com/articles/sex-gender-intersex-transgender-identity-discrimination-title-ix/

"Visualizing Sex as a Spectrum - Scientific American Blog Network" blogs.scientificamerican.com/sa-visual/visualizing-sex-as-a-spectrum/

Sex is being pushed as a spectrum by those with a vested interest. They use DSD's as a 'gotcha' despite the use of karotyping and chromosone testing to pinpoint a person's sex.

Moreandmoreandmore · 06/10/2021 14:19

It's hard, and sometimes things seem very dark and endless. I read this today, it's a really powerful piece of writing. I so hope she's right and that the struggles we are going through are the curve of the turn.

merchedcymru.wales/2021/10/04/how-to-live/

ANewCreation · 06/10/2021 14:12

[quote Daisyxo]@Waitwhat23. You’re wrong. Sex is not being pushed as a spectrum. Sex is biological. However sex can be changed through an operation called a sex change.. What you mean is gender which is a spectrum because it is a social construct invented by humans[/quote]
And there is no operation that can change your biological sex - it is in every cell of your body...

TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 14:08

[quote Daisyxo]@TimeToDateAgain I may be wrong but I am not sure that is what PP was referring to in their post.. they meant gender.[/quote]
This is feeling rather Life of Brian - we'll need WaitWhat23 to resolve it. Grin

Either way, there are many threads on FWR where 'sex is a spectrum' is introduced by some posters. Putting that phrase into Google/whatever returns a lot of hits although it's good to see Colin Wright's piece arguing against it is on the front page of results for me.

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 14:07

@Daisyxo we have seen many, many posters insist that sex is a spectrum. We have seen dodgy YouTube videos given as 'evidence' that this is so. Sex and gender is being deliberately conflated by organisations such as Stonewall.

Sex is immutable and binary. It is unchanging.

Gender is a social construct and is indeed on a spectrum.

There is no such thing as a 'sex change' operation. There are certainly some cosmetic changes which can be made (breast implants for example) but no operation can make someone 'change sex'.

BabyOctopus · 06/10/2021 14:05

OP, I was going to start a thread on this myself.

At times this really does affect my mental health. Sometimes I’m so angry about how things are going and my own powerlessness that I can’t sleep.

It’s the hypocrisy that has upset me so much lately, especially certain men leaping on the poor Sarah Everard story as a way to showcase themselves as a gleaming example of feminist manhood, e.g. Owen Jones asking where are the women’s voices that need to be amplified (which led to somebody suggesting he talk to an expert on violence against women, only for the expert herself to reply that Jones had blocked her even though she’d never spoken with him. I expect she had had the temerity to air a view that put women’s needs first and foremost, and this offended Jones - how very dare she.)

The women’s sport thing lately too; really good evidence coming out to support what we all knew but were previously chastised for articulating. Nevertheless, good news that there is now up-to-date research to call upon. And yet we still have sports bodies coming out to say they will prioritise inclusion over fairness and safety to women! I think it’s utterly outrageous they can get away with this - a sporting body’s top priorities should be fairness and safety.

The other thing that is getting me down - I know two young non-gender conforming females, one in their early 20s and the other a pre-teen. They have always tended towards androgynous hair styles and clothing. Both are thoughtful, clever, creative types, who might be considered a bit ‘quirky’. The older is now on testosterone and is fundraising to have their breasts surgically removed. The youngest chops and changes pronouns and has already queried about puberty blockers. I accept in rare cases that medical transition may be the only course of action for those with severe gender dysphoria, but it’s unbelievable that in 2021 it’s seen by wider society as a good and praiseworthy thing that people are undergoing medical transition with potentially serious side-effects alongside life-altering surgery, purely on the basis of a nebulous gender identity that doesn’t ‘match’ their sex.

I am a traditional “lefty” atheist. I am able to critically examine arguments and assess evidence (in fact, I won awards for it in university).

I’ve done my very best to see it from the other side, but each time I fall back on the side of so-called ‘radical feminism’, which doesn’t seem so very radical at all to me.

The women in my family get it, but don’t often talk about it for fear of being thought intolerant. The men in my family agree with my viewpoint, but believe it’s not a priority right now. All except for my father, a GP who has cared for and supported trans people, but nevertheless understands the conflict with women’s rights.

The fact the other men - who I love very much and are otherwise good people - don’t view this as an especially important issue tells you all you need to know. And that’s why I’m depressed about it.

Daisyxo · 06/10/2021 14:04

@TimeToDateAgain I may be wrong but I am not sure that is what PP was referring to in their post.. they meant gender.

TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 14:01

[quote Daisyxo]@Waitwhat23. You’re wrong. Sex is not being pushed as a spectrum. Sex is biological. However sex can be changed through an operation called a sex change.. What you mean is gender which is a spectrum because it is a social construct invented by humans[/quote]
Waitwhat23 is correct that some people push 'sex as a spectrum' using DSD/VSD/congenital variations in complex pathways as human shields.

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 13:59

@milkytwilightt

It’s causing me such anxiety. Especially as I have a daughter and I fear so much for her future. Yesterday I was looking at hormone free contraception and on the NHS website for the coil they refer to women as ‘people with wombs’. However for the vasectomy they refer to men as men. I just don’t understand it. If we want to reduce people to their anatomy then surely it should apply to everyone and not just women
That's just it. Even if you take the whole 'changing language to be more inclusive' thing at face value, why is the language used to refer to men not changing? Why is it only the language used to refer to women?

It gives a good insight as to the motivations of those pushing for these changes.

RoyalCorgi · 06/10/2021 13:59

@Waitwhat23

What I find so bizarre is the insistence of 'sex is a spectrum'. Not even the most vociferous, vocal, insistent follower of the 'sex is a spectrum' mantra can produce one credible piece of evidence to show that sex is not immutable or that human beings can change sex. Not one.

Yet this insistence on something which has no basis in fact is being used to change laws and policies and is being taught to children in schools as literal fact and anyone who asks for the evidence of this statement is automatically branded a bigot.

It's one of the strangest things I've ever seen. It is very reminiscent of a word I am not allowed to use here but it so, so is!

Oh indeed. And in fact if it were true that sex is a spectrum, Darwinism would be rendered meaningless. I mean, imagine that - the TRAs have proved Darwin wrong. If they were right, that would be sensational. Most of the biological scientific discoveries of the 20th century would be false.
Daisyxo · 06/10/2021 13:58

@Waitwhat23. You’re wrong. Sex is not being pushed as a spectrum. Sex is biological. However sex can be changed through an operation called a sex change.. What you mean is gender which is a spectrum because it is a social construct invented by humans

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 13:54

What I find so bizarre is the insistence of 'sex is a spectrum'. Not even the most vociferous, vocal, insistent follower of the 'sex is a spectrum' mantra can produce one credible piece of evidence to show that sex is not immutable or that human beings can change sex. Not one.

Yet this insistence on something which has no basis in fact is being used to change laws and policies and is being taught to children in schools as literal fact and anyone who asks for the evidence of this statement is automatically branded a bigot.

It's one of the strangest things I've ever seen. It is very reminiscent of a word I am not allowed to use here but it so, so is!

TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 13:45

We're 52% of the electorate. Until they come for our vote (give them time) we've got a say.

The victim-blaming and depth of internalised misogyny of posters on MN doesn't give me much hope at times.

I don't know how we get round it but the sheer ignorance of what is happening (courtesy of major news outlets) and its consequences feels contrived.

Toseland · 06/10/2021 13:44

This reply has been deleted

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Signalbox · 06/10/2021 13:38

when I read the Telegraph article about the NHS single sex wards and that they are more worried about denying the "rights" of a predatory male than they are about the safety of women on the ward where he ends up it just blew my mind. Even though I already know this is what they are doing I still can't quite believe that they are doing it. Those poor women that are being sexually assaulted and then the statements that are released talking about doing "risk assessments" striking an appropriate balance”. I mean ffs who is risk assessing these abusers and thinking it's appropriate for them to be around vulnerable women?

It is really depressing.

LangClegFlavoredBananaMush · 06/10/2021 13:38

Yes, I get the same sinking feeling I remember from my school days as it was dawning on me that being female meant being considered a second class human and getting creeped on by males with no recourse. At least then I felt optimistic that our future was bound to improve, since I could compare my time with earlier times. But now, seeing this new wave of misogyny, twisting the gains that our elders made against women to suit men, with the support of so many women to boot, I do feel very distressed at times. We have to keep going...