Is anyone else struggling with the obvious unfairness of this issue

@foxgoosefinch Agree with your every word too.

On the positive side, I now thoroughly understand what people had to go through under communism, or even in Germany during the Third Reich. If you make the penalty for speaking the truth or speaking out so high that people dare not do it, then you pave the way for atrocity and injustice.

I’m always amazed that my students, who you’d think would be bothered about the big issues like climate crisis, Brexit, globalism, student debt, housing, and the fact they are basically economically fucked - are more bothered about pronouns than any of that. The “feminist” students are all totally pro-porn and pro sex work and don’t seem to see any of the problems with any of it.

I'm trying to remember how I thought at that age. It would have been the early 70s. So, supposedly, women had it all, so we were pretty upbeat. Could take the pill. I think though prostitution, men's behaviour to women was then to me a class thing, educated people didn't have this problem, it was the lower classes. I was a student. Didn't see it as my problem. I also assumed the Gov were sorting stuff - 3 day week for one. My parents voted Cons so I followed that.

Perhaps that still remains and today's female students have nice male friends and don't associate so much with the sexist ones.
It will be interesting to see how their views develop/ or not, over the next 10 years.

Tories generally are interesting. They are a mix.

As far as govt goes.

Very generally I'd say that-

Trans issues are not interesting to them. Nor are women's issues.

They are also I'd say generally of little interest to their voter base.
And for a portion of their voter base, given I imagine many are more 'traditional'

Gender roles are important. Neat and tidy. Clear places in society. Hierarchy obvious. I mean some. Not all by any means. And also not an exclusionary conservative view. (Although may be expressed in different ways for those people in other parties).

Also strangely.

While obv not being keen on feminists (who is!) or having much concern for women generally and the myriad issues we face including many they have brought about.

They are for women in their group as it were, alright.
Two female prime minister's.
Hardly an absence of strong opinionated vocal women.
Etc.

So in the end while personally I would never vote for them. And find many/ most of the more prominent over the years genuinely just awful - men and women.

When it comes to their general group as it were. There seem to be far fewer issues with their attitude to women.

And conservative women group are very vocal on this.

So no. They will just want to stay well away. Will make vague noises.

IMO.

All the best to you LemonSwan

What are the Tories up to?
I can't see them becoming pro trans before the next election - I don't have loyalty to anyone really but would feel seriously betrayed if the Cons changed, decided introduce laws on changing gender easier etc
I think I'd vote labour just to spite them as I'd feel so angry.

The “feminist” students are all totally pro-porn and pro sex work and don’t seem to see any of the problems with any of it.

Do they happily walk home alone at night?
I mean, if you think porn's fine, sex work's fine, I would think you'd accept being accosted by kerb crawlers and groped by random men as acceptable behaviour. And happily go out an about.

Imagine placing your 'feelings' above the importance of addressing climate change, medical assistance for people with real health issues and the discrimination on race, religion and sex prevalent all around the world not forgetting all the other issues.

I’m always amazed that my students, who you’d think would be bothered about the big issues like climate crisis, Brexit, globalism, student debt, housing, and the fact they are basically economically fucked - are more bothered about pronouns than any of that. The “feminist” students are all totally pro-porn and pro sex work and don’t seem to see any of the problems with any of it.

It really is like watching one of those early 20thc ideological movements spring up - or being in the GDR or Maoist China or similar. You keep wondering why all these people are saying things that are just patently not true. But I think it’s not an accident that most of the most fervent woke ideologists are under 25. They never grew up in the long shadow of the postwar where people above all feared totalitarianism. The postwar culture, despite everything wrong about it, nevertheless retained a deep commitment to ideas of personal freedoms, and freedom of speech, that is now coming under threat from those who see nothing wrong in coercive control of speech and thought as long as it fits their ideology. It’s quite terrifying because we all know how those movements go. And to think we thought that the days of being captured by dangerous ideologies were over.

I remember in the 90s doing the ubiquitous Nazi Germany topic for GCSE and A-level history, and so much of the historiography was academics wondering how on Earth so many people went along with it all, and surely they didn’t actually know what was going on? Sadly these days it isn’t a mystery any more, post Trump, post truth and post fact.

Unfotunately there is a long history of women being shown and told how unimportant we are. Kept in seclusion, not permitted to leave the house, opinions not valued, ideas and work stolen and presented under the name of the theif, branded as witches, heretics, evil... And the list continues.

Once again we are branded as evil, silly, uninformed and told we really do not know what we are talking about.

We do know. Sex is real. Gender is a made up concept that deserves as much respect as the belief that we live on Disc World or Atlantis.

Those who have an agenda to push their rights above all others only display their contempt and arrogance. Imagine placing your 'feelings' above the importance of addressing climate change, medical assistance for people with real health issues and the discrimination on race, religion and sex prevalent all around the world not forgetting all the other issues.

Very glad to hear that, LemonSwan. And yes, I think I know what you mean.

Trouble is that a lot of old misogynists believe in the “the pendulum has swung too far and now men are oppressed”; and that oh so neatly synthesises with the new woke misogyny about how oppressive and privileged “cis” women are.

Meanwhile in the real world, young girls and women are constantly sexually harassed and threatened or even murdered, domestic violence skyrockets, porn dominates many men’s lives, children are abused in huge numbers, women get pushed out of the workforce and the pay gap widens again.

But we are all supposed to pretend none of that is happening because it’s fashionable to say that the most oppressed people ever are middle-aged white transwomen, and even our politicians go along with it and nobody in charge seems to want to stand up and say this is all wrong.

ArabellaScott
EmbarrassingAdmissions

Thanks both, I am luckily completely well now and hopefully will stay that way.

And dont be sorry. It was traumatic but in an ironic way it was honestly the making of me. When everything in your life falls apart you have a unique opportunity to rebuild it and I certainly made the most of that. Very happy with where I am now

This sums i5 up for me and I guess everyone else. Even the liars

Och lemon. Sorry for you ❤️❤️❤️

Here's what I think.

And if that's how it was it is even worse really.

'
I note-

1. Not elected so her speech can't be taken as from a Tory representative etc. Just an individual

1. Also no expectation/ obligation etc to discuss, answer questions or challenges. Not going to be interviewed on Andrew Marr etc. And no expectation to do so. As not a politician.

1. When it's this topic it's often a woman put forward. For a number of reasons.

It's women who don't like it she's one and in favour. So those saying bad for women, other women are in favour.

Women are the sex seen as nice, kind. Also this sort of thing is usually seen as 'women's issues' anyway. Here she will be taken by men in general to be addressing women. Being nice and caring is their thing. Nothing to do with us. Auto switch off.

Trying to leverage female be kind socialisation.
...

It's a carefully thought out approach, her doing this speech.

Yep very interesting.'

It was strategic.

Hold on I'll get what I wrote on another thread...

[quote PowerNap]@WitchButNotTheFunKind thank you It genuinely gives me hope for humanity to know that there are people who can see through it.[/quote]
Powernap it was absolutely appalling.

I grew up went to school and have lived pretty much all my life in a London borough with a v large Jewish population. It is unfathomable to me antisemitism full stop.

And labour. Just FAILED. For so long.. On the rampant antisemitism in the party. It was disgusting.

I know that loads of Jewish people in this area have been staunch labour supports for years. And going back through the decades and different generations.

And they just. Didn't see them as important? Assumed they would continue voting labour even with all that?

Taken for granted.

Women. Taken for granted.

The large numbers of traditional labour voters. All over the country.

Thinking well I can't relate to what they do and say at all any more.

Taken for granted.

Arrogance. And.

Generalisations coming- obv doesn't apply across the board!

When right wing people - the ones that are of the current govt type. Do shitty things. They know they are doing it.. I'm sure they rationalise it to themselves one way or another. Or just don't care. But they are not oblivious to what they say and do.

So many on the left are utterly blindingly incapable of even wondering for a split second if they may not be looking at things fully. May not be 100% right on every single view they hold. They are clear sighted, their thinking is fully thought through and they know all about it. Etc.
They are goodies always. They by definition cannot miss something or get anything wrong.
Anyone who disagrees on anything, or points out that the party are fucking up somewhere. Is a baddie. Wrong. Ill informed, don't understand properly, incapable of understanding properly. Maybe. Could well just be a terrible person.

And so with their total belief in their own opinions on any and all topics. Even in areas where they have never and can never get it like those is affects. They are right and that is it. People in those groups that say what about this and that and this is rubbish etc. What do they know? I know best. Those who make a fuss can and should be ignored.

And they DO NOT DOUBT THIS EVER. NO MATTER WHAT.

And that is a really serious problem for them.

So look after yourself first and foremost.

Excellent advice. I'm sorry you've been through so much with this.

“I'm so, so fucked off about unelected Carrie Johnson turning up at the Tory Conference with the odious Crispin 'Back Room Deal' Blunt and Stonewall CEO Nancy Kelley, to talk - apparently on behalf of her husband, she suggested - about areas of policy.”

I totally agree - WTAF is she DOING?

Oh my word, Lemon. What a traumatic time. I'm so sorry. Hope you are completely well again now.

Yes this really affected me. 3 years ago when no one really got it - except the 'feminists' in the know it sent me to the verge of a breakdown.

After a social media attack on another platform for voicing my views and a hacking attack affecting all my online presences and devices - it actually sent my into a full blown psychotic breakdown.

I lost complete touch with reality and was scared, frightened, felt I was living in another world - well I was - my brain could not cope with the cognitive dissonance and when combined with stress and a virtual but still real life attack (even though not physical); I absolutely could not see the woods for the trees.

The line between reality and fiction was blown. I was sectioned for 30 days. I subsequently lost my job because I was in the middle of changing jobs so no rights.

It really fucked me up for a whole year until I got back on track.

Now I am quite pragmatic about it. I can absolutely see how major social tragedies in history happened - like the Nazis. Because I will not EVER put myself at risk again fighting in the minority if the world/ society is stupid enough to decide it wants to deliberately and/or sleep walk itself to hell in a handbasket - regardless of the reason or severity.

So look after yourself first and foremost. This is not right, its not sustainable and it will all come out in the wash eventually

The odd win helps, every organisation leaving the Stonewall diversity scheme cheers me up

Common decency reasserts itself.

My first reaction to reading that was to ask, "for whom"?

Domestic violence and abuse is common. I have no idea of the figures but a look around MN or a chat with friends indicates that very few single parents receive a reliable Child Maintenance Payment without a struggle.

Bullying and sexual harassment in schools and workplaces is common.

I wonder who is served by this decency? Does the benefit of this 'decency' accrue to those who get the benefit of a blind eye to their behaviour and the consequences of it?

Obvs not talking about any of the horrible vipers on here, who are all completely beyond the pale, of course.