Say goodbye to your pudendum

I'm back after my initial rant. Just to offer a comparator from another language. Just discussed with a Finn to confirm.

In Finnish words for lady bits you can clearly see three eras of word formation.

In the oldest you find "emätin" (vagina). That's a clearly Finnish word, which somewhat (at least to me) connotes "instrument (-in) for causing (-t-) motherhood (emä)". I like that.

In the newest you find direct transliterations like "vulva" or "klitoris".

But in the middle period you find terms like "häpy" (vulva, or genitalia) and "häpykieli" (clitoris - vulva/genital-tongue).

But "häpy" is also "shame". This won't be a coincidence - clearly someone centuries back translated the Latin anatomical term "pudendum", based on its other meaning. This was quite common back then - scholars going off to foreign lands, learning Latin, Swedish or German stuff and translating it "literally".

So, the question is, how would the anti-sexism anti-shame scholars fare in Finland? It's a direct analogue - it's a word meaning shame for genitalia that is primarily used for female, but not exclusively.

But the difference is that it is obviously shame. Exactly the same word. Wiktionary's example sentence "Eikö sinulla ole yhtään häpyä?" - "Don't you have any shame?" could equally be "Don't you have any vulva/genitalia?". You would generally assume the first meaning though.

In a sense, unlike English, the collision is so obvious, you barely notice it. (Like "can" in English - "be able", or "tin"?) That the two meanings of "häpy" might be related rather than coincidence might not have registered.

Asking a Finn, she just laughed at the prospect that someone might try to abolish "häpy"-related anatomy words. Not something that would have occurred to her.

But that said, having heard so much other nonsense, she could imagine someone might hear of this daft idea from English speakers and have a go. It might be possible given that there are probably other replacements - "häpy" itself is a bit old-fashioned - but it would be far more of a struggle, as it's not as niche as "pudendum". You would not just be attacking a couple of anatomy books.

She's certainly heard gender loonies complaining about Finnish's lack of sexed pronouns, so wouldn't put it past them... That causes trans people to be "misgendered", and doesn't give an inroad for pronoun circles and demanding neopronouns.

I wish there was a 'friendly' and generally used word for vulva, like willy.

The multitude of eupamisms, some very strange. The way that more friendly words quickly become highly sexualised.

I mean it's because of women's genitals for ages being seen as just inherently rude, vulgar, unmentionable.

When I was growing up. Downstairs / undercarriage down before were generally used. By those of older generations.

I didn't even HAVE a word! I mean literally.

I was trying to remember my midwifery lectures about the functions of the vagina. They were something like these:

Sexual intercourse – receives the penis and ejaculate, assisting in its transport to the uterus.
Childbirth – expands to provide a channel for delivery of a newborn from the uterus.
Menstruation – serves as a canal for menstrual fluid and tissue to leave the body.

So not just as a receptacle for the penis.

By the way I'm enjoying this chat. Moreso than the previous nonsense!

It's from Latin, sheath.

I'm not sure when phrases like pork sword were invented but I'd put money on the area/ group it came from didn't know the etymology!

I really do think that it's a dead cert it's putting penis in.

I've got a couple other things that I'll look into if feel like it...

What about languages that do not derive from Latin

And poss words before Roman empire. That sort of thing.

I actually really dislike both the words vagina and penis. Urgh. I never say them in RL, they make me cringe!

*Just realised in s thread about language for women's sex organs.

We are all endlessly discussing dicks

I’m not :o

But that’s my point. All our penis=sword, sword goes in a sheath, therefore vag=penis holder, are deriving from what we understand culturally and therefore assume about the word’s origins. What I’m saying is that those connections could have come later. Vagina may just have been named what it was to mean “hollow” or hole.

Again, I am not saying I disagree that penis sword sheath is a perfectly likely origin, I’m just saying you can’t assume that because etymology doesn’t work to suit our assumptions, it is much more random and convoluted than that.

But that is my last attempt to make my point because I know I’m sounding like a stuck record.

Just realised in s thread about language for women's sex organs.

We are all endlessly discussing dicks

Fucks sake!

And all because of the FACT that (so we're told) the vagina has ONE SOLE function, and that is the only function (obviously) that has been involved in its evolution. And so calling it place for dick is totally fine and not even worth a seconds thought

Oh googled. Lots in Shakespeare.

Also, symbolic in TV sword cock. Like fireworks orgasm, gun also dick etc.

The penis is more than strongly implied surely!

A baby comes out not put in.

Plenty of things which reference penis as sword. Off top of my head (sorry!) pork sword.

It's also often through history been thought of as powerful. (By men obv!). And is certainly used as a weapon.

I think it's that the ancient word that can be translated as sheath can have a more general meaning of "thing that surrounds" and / or "husk" - so could refer to the vagina as simply a "hollow", or a thing that can surround other things including birthing babies not just sheathing penises.

I mean I am getting ridiculously detailed now but originally I was just wondering if the penis was actually strongly implied or if we're just assuming that. Of course it makes sense, just might not be a given.

I mean if that's a personal question you don't need to answer

And all that is simple nonsense.

I mean unless they've redefined some words

The statement that the only evolution of the vagina was to do with penetration was a particular high point.

Thulian it was only the statement that being penetrated with a penis was the SOLE function. Which is just silly.

It then descended into even more peculiar assertions from apparently a biologist...!

I mean, the sheath of a sword isn't an "original" word, if that makes sense. It's called that because it encloses the sword. But you could equally sheath many other things. The sheath of a sword specifically is a scabbard. You sheath the sword in the scabbard.

There are a lot of sheaths in anatomy, like the one around your heart, which doesn't really have anything to do with a penis or sword.

I don't deny that at all, but the more etymology I find about, the more I realise things are named for all sorts of random reasons. Making an assumption about why something is called what it is on the basis of its apparent etymology is often totally wrong.

Again I'm not saying this to disagree, but I do think it's worth pondering, Things generally are.

I don't think there's any doubt that a lot of men think of their penis as a weapon. Look at the threats against terfs: so many references to rape and fucking as punishment. It's regularly used as a weapon in war when men and women are raped by the victors. So I don't think there's much point in wasting time pondering on whether it might mean something else.

The idea that it means

Ok I’ve come back to the thread and had this thought. Do we know that the “sheath” is definitely referring to the penis being sheathed, or is it whatever happens to be surrounded by and/or enclosed by the vagina? From my googling, Latin vagina can mean sheath or husk/surrounding of a wheat/plant kernel. The latter might seem more linked to giving birth. So is the that it means for a penis a more recent assumption?

In my first post I did say sheathing the penis was one of the functions of the vagina and not the only one. I think it’s fairly normal for a thing to be named after one of its functions and not all, but in this case it’s really the shape of the vagina, something that surrounds, that has given it its name.

Btw I’m not taking sides in the argument on this thread, just musing.

I have never heard the word pudendum before. When is it ever used?

Birthed!

To be fair, I’ve sheathed a lot more penises than I’ve burned children.

Which post are you referring to with that? Not sure if it's me or someone else!

The idea that the reproductive system isn't for reproduction is a bit odd. There is a reason we don't find them in amoebas. No sexual reproduction, no uterus, no need for a vagina.

The vagina is only there for reproduction, which depends on sex with someone with a penis, it didn't evolve with IVF type scenarios in mind.