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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Unisex toilets in secondary school

54 replies

CherryAndAlmond · 05/10/2021 17:56

DS14 has just informed me that all the toilets in his school were switched to unisex over the summer holidays. Is this a common thing in secondary schools now? What I'm concerned about, aside from the obvious, is that parents were not consulted or informed. How do I raise this with the school, and is it even worth it? Thanks.

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CharlieParley · 07/10/2021 21:11

@Jaysmith71

And just a reminder that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment does not apply to anyone under 18 when they are not eligible to have or to seek a GRC.
This isn't correct. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment applies to everyone who identifies as trans, regardless of their age or legal status or whether they have transitioned or not.

That's because the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is part of the Equality Act 2010 and exists entirely separately from the Gender Recognition Certificate available under the Gender Recognition Act.

However, it is true that no one under 18 can legally change sex via a Gender Recognition Certificate. That means that no child who identifies as trans has a legal right to access opposite sex facilities under the Equality Act and schools are not dealing with children whose legal sex differs from their biological sex, making exclusion from single-sex provisions much more straightforward.

Jaysmith71 · 06/10/2021 17:25

And just a reminder that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment does not apply to anyone under 18 when they are not eligible to have or to seek a GRC.

PricklesTheHedgehog · 06/10/2021 16:24

These toilets are not gender-neutral, non-binary or uni-sex, they are mixed-sex. It helps to hammer home the point you're making.

^ This is well worded. Please complain about the school's poorly thought through proposal!

LaBellina · 06/10/2021 02:17

Yes on further thought that’s probably the case @SammyScrounge and it’s indeed very, very concerning. I wonder how some people can look at themselves straight in the mirror after betraying vulnerable children- that they’re supposed to offer a safe school environment- like this. It’s appalling really.

SammyScrounge · 06/10/2021 01:56

@LaBellina

I would be very very concerned about how seriously this school is about safeguarding for making toilets unisex in the first place but not even mentioning it to parents is really taking it to the next level, apparently they didn’t even consider it might be a safe guarding concern. This wouldn’t sit right with me at all!
They do it without consulting parents because they know the parent body would oppose It:s a betrayal of trust and of the 'contract' between parents and school. You should ask for a public meeting with the school board. Invite the local press and have your questions about safeguarding and other matters ready.
user1745 · 06/10/2021 01:23

@Lindy2

Several Secondary schools in our area have these.

The whole area is open plan set back from the corridor. They are all individual lockable cubicles with privacy once inside the cubicle.

The open plan area is however visible from the corridor area. That means there's no messing about in that area, more than one pupil going into a cubicle would be seen and heard, there's no sneaky smoking or opportunity for bullying and the toilet area is very clean and new.

Why would a school need to consult parents on this? I think it's a very good idea.

I understand the bullying issue in enclosed bathrooms, but an enclosed hand washing area also provides a private space for girls to wash blood off their hands, ask other girls for spare pads etc. It's one more layer of privacy from boys which they now don't have.
user1745 · 06/10/2021 01:10

This is a terrible idea at any time, but given the recent scandal over sexual assaults and harassment in schools, who in their right mind thought this was a good idea.

thirdfiddle · 05/10/2021 22:24

The open plan area is however visible from the corridor area. That means there's no messing about in that area, more than one pupil going into a cubicle would be seen and heard

And who's standing watching these open plan areas to see and hear any misbehaviour? Schools don't have the staff to station someone by each toilet block. Even if technically in view through classroom doors, they'll be far too busy teaching.

Chewieboora · 05/10/2021 21:13

Google Culloden Academy toilets Inverness. Someone set up a Facebook group. The contractor/school put them in, now back to single sex. Absolutely ridiculous to do it. Good luck.

Jaysmith71 · 05/10/2021 21:10

Any children from culturally conservative backgrounds?

In rural Norfolk you'll likely have East European or Portuguese migrant parents, socially conservative Catholics.

SuperCaliFragalistic · 05/10/2021 21:09

@Lindy2

Several Secondary schools in our area have these.

The whole area is open plan set back from the corridor. They are all individual lockable cubicles with privacy once inside the cubicle.

The open plan area is however visible from the corridor area. That means there's no messing about in that area, more than one pupil going into a cubicle would be seen and heard, there's no sneaky smoking or opportunity for bullying and the toilet area is very clean and new.

Why would a school need to consult parents on this? I think it's a very good idea.

Similar at schools we've been looking at recently. Floor to ceiling doors and walls so no peeping, open to the corridor with an open plan sink space so reduces opportunities for gathering in packs or bullying.

The girls toilets at my secondary (early 90s) tended to be full of the older, more intimidating girls "hanging out". It was very much out of sight of teachers and rife for smoking and bullying.

I guess my preference would be a choice - single and mixed sex loos around the site.

CherryAndAlmond · 05/10/2021 21:07

@CharlieParley Yes, there's a small but growing number of children from some of those communities, esp Muslim. Some Travellers also. That's definitely worth raising.

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CherryAndAlmond · 05/10/2021 21:03

@CharlieParley

And ask if you can see the Children's Rights Impact Assessment and the Equality Impact Assessment on removing the legally mandated single-sex facilities.

They have to at the very least do those if they are making any changes of this kind.

Also, ask about girls who have been victims of sexual abuse. Has any thought gone into the impact on these pupils of making the toilets mixed-sex?

I would also advise you to be very clear in your language. These toilets are not gender-neutral, non-binary or uni-sex, they are mixed-sex. It helps to hammer home the point you're making.

Great advice, thank you.

Oh God, I've got to take on another bloody fight! I'm so damn tired of it!

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CharlieParley · 05/10/2021 20:56

And ask if you can see the Children's Rights Impact Assessment and the Equality Impact Assessment on removing the legally mandated single-sex facilities.

They have to at the very least do those if they are making any changes of this kind.

Also, ask about girls who have been victims of sexual abuse. Has any thought gone into the impact on these pupils of making the toilets mixed-sex?

I would also advise you to be very clear in your language. These toilets are not gender-neutral, non-binary or uni-sex, they are mixed-sex. It helps to hammer home the point you're making.

CharlieParley · 05/10/2021 20:51

@CherryAndAlmond

They've removed the urinals, Marshmallow.

Prickles, it's Norfolk. Semi-rural. Large mixed comprehensive.

Any children from culturally conservative backgrounds? Orthodox Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Brethren, Travellers? Are there single-sex provisions for them or are they now left without any sanitary facilities?
CherryAndAlmond · 05/10/2021 20:50

According to DS it's normal cubicles with communal handwashing. He's not sure if there are gaps top and bottom of the cubicle walls - I've told him to check! I'm really grateful for all the helpful comments. You've helped me clarify my argument and I'll definitely be approaching the school, and if necessary going to the papers and organising a parent group.
DD certainly won't be going there in three years time if they don't sort their shit out.

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Taxwolf · 05/10/2021 20:43

My younger daughter’s school was rebuilt during her time there are all the toilets were unisex. Floor to ceiling doors. The teachers used them as well.

She hated them. She ended up with quite a bad infection at one point as she refused to use them. At the time I was told on here that I had brought my DD up to have toilet issues!!!

I had a similar experience at the office I worked in. A new build building had all unisex toilets. The basins etc were within the cubicles. It just felt awkward. Interestingly the new building I now work in - same organisation has gone back to separate toilets plus a few stand alone ones.

Zeflyinghelmetandzevetcelery · 05/10/2021 20:34

They had this at the secondary school near where I live. Some boys' behaviour was a huge issue. Girls were avoiding drinking so they didn't have to use the loos and waiting until lunch to dash home or to the nearest burger place. The parents organised themselves and pressured the school to introduce single sex facilities in addition to a mixed sex one.

Sexnotgender · 05/10/2021 20:26

Just because it says unisex doesn’t mean it will be used as such.

That’s irrelevant.

PenOrPencil · 05/10/2021 20:25

We have unisex toilets in my school in one building. They are just normal toilets with top to floor cubicles, hand wash basins in the middle, no urinals, no door to the corridor. Even though these toilets are supposedly unisex only girls use the toilets at one end of the building and only boys use the ones at the other end.

I don’t know if all teachers are even aware of the supposedly unisex nature of the toilets and I am pretty sure there would be teenage uproar if boys wanted to use the girls’ toilets and vice versa.

Our school tries hard to be woke, but most students and teachers just aren’t.

We do have a few non-binary and trans students who use one specific disabled toilet. Just because it says unisex doesn’t mean it will be used as such.

Sexnotgender · 05/10/2021 20:24

@Lindy2

Several Secondary schools in our area have these.

The whole area is open plan set back from the corridor. They are all individual lockable cubicles with privacy once inside the cubicle.

The open plan area is however visible from the corridor area. That means there's no messing about in that area, more than one pupil going into a cubicle would be seen and heard, there's no sneaky smoking or opportunity for bullying and the toilet area is very clean and new.

Why would a school need to consult parents on this? I think it's a very good idea.

As long as they are fully self contained units with hand washing facilities inside the stall and floor to ceiling doors and walls.

I assume that’s not what we’re discussing here.

LongBlobson · 05/10/2021 20:17

@Lindy2

The modern buildings with specially designed individual cubicles can work well I think.

What we're talking about is schools converting normal old school toilets into 'gender neutral', by removing the urinals and changing the signs.

Jaysmith71 · 05/10/2021 20:13

....although technically it may be 'unlawful.'

Jaysmith71 · 05/10/2021 20:12

It's illegal.

This. This. And this.

Lindy2 · 05/10/2021 20:10

Several Secondary schools in our area have these.

The whole area is open plan set back from the corridor. They are all individual lockable cubicles with privacy once inside the cubicle.

The open plan area is however visible from the corridor area. That means there's no messing about in that area, more than one pupil going into a cubicle would be seen and heard, there's no sneaky smoking or opportunity for bullying and the toilet area is very clean and new.

Why would a school need to consult parents on this? I think it's a very good idea.