Single sex spaces are "The hill I am prepared to die on".

A quick comment on the idea that butch lesbians are suddenly being challenged every five minutes in women’s toilets. The lesbian in the article shared isn’t a random lesbian. It’s “Ms Stonborough, the Associate Director of Policy and Research at Stonewall”. Not sure if it’s the same article I read before, but I’ve read one where she made the ludicrous claim that she was challenged about a third of the time she uses public toilets. As the mother of a butch lesbian, who hasn’t once been challenged in the UK, and as someone who has spoken to a number of other butch lesbians who’ve perhaps been rarely queried but never nastily, I think we can safely dismiss any article quoting that woman as hyperbolic propaganda, with no basis in truth. Please point it out any time you see her quoted.

Good for JHB though! A hill worth dying on indeed, and I’m glad to see women (even those who are normally confident, as JHB is) standing up for this in increasingly secure terms. Though it’s still not easy to speak out, the accusations and name-calling are getting less and less effective.

I’m not going to stand up and claim I can always tell whether someone is a man or a woman. I definitely can’t, and sure 50% of that is due to trying not to stare at someone, but I would never be one of these people shouting they can always tell. Guarantee someone could devise a test that proves me wrong. It’s kind of a moot point though. If no one can tell adn you’re an old school transwoman who genuinely just wants to pee surely no one will notice? So let’s make the rules to protect women from men wandering into our spaces because they can and if a few extra slide under the radar then they probably always have.

Pearl I'd go 99%.

But yes.

My conclusion is that the idea that it's hard to tell what sex someone is. And generally clothes etc are relied on.

Is true (truer) for men.

As ever the male norm is seen as THE NORM.

So much patriarchal shite dribbling through this whole movement.

Sorry I can't quite understand your point. I've read a few times and still trying to get to grips.

Is this bit a typo?

'Sure, a transwoman who convincingly passes as a man might unsettle women.'

In general the 'no more right' point I'm not sure on.

Single sex spaces are to protect us from blokes.
Blokes don't need that protection from us.

Women are objecting massively to males in our single sex things.

I haven't heard a hint that bogstandard blokes are even slightly interested.

And in fact when it boils down to it, bogstandard blokes had a pretty long list of people they didn't want in their bogs already!

For me. Single sex stuff for vagina bodies is the vital thing.

Aside from that people can do what they like.

Transmen do not want to use female facilities. Undermines identity which is something that feel incredibly strongly about.

Tough. They have no more right to men's facilities than transwomen do to women's facilities. Though I suppose if men don't mind them being there, then whatever. Not my problem - they can sort that out themselves. But women do mind men being in women's spaces. If the choice is between transmen and transwomen being in women's spaces, then everyone who objects to it would rather transmen, because unlike transwomen, they aren't actually men. Sure, a transwoman who convincingly passes as a man might unsettle women. But no more so than an actual man who is obviously a man would, and there are far more of those.

@GrouchyKiwi

As if genitals are the only sign we have of someone's sex.

Good for JHB.

It is hardwired into our brains recognise sex for obvious reasons.

'Because there's no clear-cut answer that doesn't involve some number of male-appearing people in women's spaces. The only issues are 1) how many, and 2) whether they're actually men or biological women who look like men. IME, men who've decided they'd rather use women's spaces than men's spaces (regardless of why), but who nonetheless still look like men, are much more numerous than women who've gone through enough medical procedures that they look like men. Plus, they're not actually men, so don't belong in men's spaces for the same reasons men don't belong in women's spaces.'

Sorry disagree.

Transmen do not want to use female facilities. Undermines identity which is something that feel incredibly strongly about.

Transmen grew up as girls. Into women. They know what it's like. And they will generally not want to unsettle women and girls.

So. They will use the gents if feel confident with that.
Or they will look for a neutral space.
Those who are female are well used to waiting for the toilet, hunting for a toilet, even checking where toilets are etc before going out and doing stuff.

I can't imagine that a transman on T who had the results of T - deeper voice, altered ability to build muscle, double mastectomy, and wore a beard. For example. Would ever want to use the ladies.

And if they did for some reason.

In real life there are still things that women notice and men don't. And you know. We turned a blind eye to transwomen in the ladies for years. When it was not many about, and behaved (IME) in a sort of, very quiet please no one notice me way.

Everything was fine before.

Then sex is irrelevant. To pretty much everything.
When it's relevant you will essentially be referred to as cunts/ breeders and men as men.
Male rapists in women's prisons is fine. So shut up.
Communal changing involving nudity. Naked person with cock and balls out. If a girl notices that's rude. She needs to be educated that naked stranger cock around the place is normal and fine. That it's offensive to think anything else.

Etc etc and so on.

It was fine.

Until the inch given because a million miles demanded.

So no. No way. Get stuffed.

That was a great discussion, like getting a pep talk from a really fantastic older sister, makes you feel you can head out afresh with more confidence. Very interesting about identity politics and the loss of the importance of character too. Thanks for posting!

The thing that keeps startling me afresh with this topic.

Is the total and utter. Complete. Bizarre. Lack of any... Knowledge? Consideration. AT ALL. Of how anything whatsoever works in real life.

And questions about applying these ideas to real life are ALWAYS completely ignored.

It's just. Ridiculous tbh.

Plus.

I have witnessed many many many altercations between men. And it never started in the gents.

The RULES you see. They are very very very important. You want a fight you do it when you're both out of there.

Otherwise would mean.
Attacking when he's got his cock out?!
Waiting till he was finished IE loitering???!!!!
Attacking while you have your cock out?!!!?

No.
Yes I'm sure it happens but. It violates a code of conduct that is essentially MANDATORY.

And also, I am going to let men sort that one out. If they don't want females who identify as men in their changing spaces then I think they can say that and the societal debate can take place. As it is being discussed I believe when females go to gay spas etc.

I don't think that men are backwards in coming forward about stuff like that? And I can imagine most females being open to that and potentially respectful? And actually most men possibly being ok with it. But it's not my circus that one.

Hellebore.

It's a useless gotcha.

1. Penis havers are not at risk from vagina bodies in any way at like the other way around.

1. Transmen on T tend to 'pass' much better than transwomen for a variety of inescapable reasons.

1. As pointed out constantly blokes seem to be useless at identifying sex compared to us. AND on the gents there are VERY IMPORTANT RULES that are followed full stop.

So really I mean. It's just a totally different ball game.

1. Transmen who pass will use the gents. No problem. Those that are worried they may get spotted. Can use the gents if women's is too undermining to sense of self. Or welcome in ladies.

Zero issues that I can see.

Accessible toilets in the UK are generally enclosed with sink etc. Handrails and plenty of room.

And unisex.

I'm really personally interested to hear the views from sex is irrelevant posters on:

1. The issue with dismantling aspects of gay male culture that while seen by society as a bad thing, nevertheless is to some/ many. Something that is related to the danger that existed in the past.

It feels just all wrong to me. Arrogant and inconsiderate.

1. The reality of the peculiarities of so many male types when I comes to evacuating their bowels.

If we're talking about disabled people, does anyone remember the speech in the Lords by Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson, detailing how much more vulnerable and exposed disabled women are when using public toilets, and therefore how important single-sex toilets are even more important for those women. That's real intersectionality.

Why are we discussing exposing women who would be traumatised by a female who has chosen to modify their body with testosterone to resemble a man being in female single sex spaces? If a woman was 100% able to be confident that that person was a female who modified their body, fair enough. (But that horse bolted many years ago when males decided they should access female spaces if they so desired)

So with the current situation, I would expect another female might understand that their decision would have harmful effects on other women. I have seen transmen discuss this and it seems they are aware of this and would chose another option if there was one rather than cause others distress from their own decisions to modify their bodies.

I never find this a gotcha others think it is.

As for the rest, chromosome tests are probably a better option.

And 👍JHB

Dunno @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg; can't unravel it either

"non trans men" this is what is being done to the language of Shakespeare 🤦🏻‍♀️

Single sex spaces are safer for women & girls - mixed sex spaces are more dangerous for women & girls. Why would anyone want women & girls to be less safe? 🤔

& JHB has got a serious pair of ovaries & my respect for her stance on this issue.

Groups fought for years to get more accessible facilities and laws changed about provision.

Years.

3rd spaces is just not going to happen widely. Cash space etc.

Best solution is the one that worked for years.

Separate sex needed for women.

If any female trans people want to use the gents then that's up to them.

They are separate to protect US.

And no problem with anyone female using them.

Well said JHB.

NO to any male in women's spaces, no matter how they identify.