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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Heads up. Posie on Triggernometry Tomorrow Sun 3rd 7pm

119 replies

Childrenofthestones · 02/10/2021 19:25

Just a heads up Kellie Jay back for a second time in a new YT interview with the lads on Triggernometry. 😊👍

OP posts:
HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 13:08

@Needmoresleep

Thank you. A lot to unpick, and I suspect that at the end of the day we may up agreeing to disagree, which is what often happens when two people have different life experiences but are prepared to listen.

I will confess I assumed you were one on the regular posters who comes on here to denigrate Posie, or indeed any other strong articulate woman. And where the disagreement is not extended to providing argument, but simply attack.

Posie is a marmite figure with strongly expressed views, so disagreeing is fine.

Football is strange. As I said, despite going to 20 or so matches a year I have never heard anything remotely racist. Or indeed any sense fans prefer players because of their skin colour. (Current fan favourite is a guy from Colombia who picks up far too many cards. Previously it was a mixed race striker from the Midlands.) Yet I remember a woke friend, who had never been to a match, essentially accusing me of being racist for following football. She had heard....

Homophobia is different, and it is remarkable to compare the number of "out" players in the women's game compared to the men's. But that is seriously off topic.

It’s silly to say following football is racist. Being racist while following football is racist. Following football is following football.

I’ve been lurking for ages on this board. Some I find very helpful but I find it frustrating when discussions of racism are so often reduced to “wokeism.” That’s what spurred me to post this time, I guess.

Some internet discussions of race can be very superficial and detached from real world oppression but that doesn’t mean that therefore it’s reasonable to say all discussions of race and racism are just about virtue signalling or being woke (a term originally from Black people). I’ve seen too many threads on here that the moment race comes up people immediately jump to “what about the White working class” as if we can’t discuss both race and class, and as if class isn’t also bounded by race.

Datun · 04/10/2021 13:07

@TimeToDateAgain

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

Her idea is both rebarbative and ludicrous. I've no idea if this was her version of A Modest Proposal gone very badly awry.

I don't know what she was suggesting. I would be horribly alarmed if I saw anyone with firearms in a public washroom but accept this must be a reality in the US. Even so, seeing an armed man would escalate my state of alarm and intimidation.

I'd be taken aback if she was arguing for anyone to shoot someone. Not only for the harm to others but also the fact that anyone doing that would be charged, convicted, imprisoned, and be absent from their families for a very long time.

Although I'm startled by that video, it would have been better without the editorialising comments. It's also odd to editorialise that this is to provide her (to me) absurdity in context but not include any preamble or anything after. Was this a random comment? Response to a question in a livestream? Part of an ill-thought out response to a news story or interview?

If you advance search Posie Parker on here, you will see that there quite literally thousands upon thousands of comments about her.

Indeed, there are 45 entire threads devoted solely to her.

www.mumsnet.com/SearchArch?search_origin=mobile&mustmatch=Posie+Parker+&dontmatch=&nickname=&titles_only=on&fromDate=&toDate=

Wanting to find out the background to any and all of her comments would be reasonably easy if you matched up the dates of the comment to the threads.

Additionally, she has her own organisation on social media called standing for women, where she answers loads of questions. She is also, if I remember correctly, in London on the last Sunday of every month at speakers corner.

The one characteristic you can guarantee you will find in Posie Parker is the willingness to talk.

Something which an extraordinary number of people find rather uncomfortable.

ScreamingMeMe · 04/10/2021 13:01

I'm not, I'm disagreeing with your "interpretation" of what she said.

Gottalife · 04/10/2021 12:55

@ScreamingMeMe

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

What utter rubbish Hmm

Ok, just pretend it never happened.
TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 12:52

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

Her idea is both rebarbative and ludicrous. I've no idea if this was her version of A Modest Proposal gone very badly awry.

I don't know what she was suggesting. I would be horribly alarmed if I saw anyone with firearms in a public washroom but accept this must be a reality in the US. Even so, seeing an armed man would escalate my state of alarm and intimidation.

I'd be taken aback if she was arguing for anyone to shoot someone. Not only for the harm to others but also the fact that anyone doing that would be charged, convicted, imprisoned, and be absent from their families for a very long time.

Although I'm startled by that video, it would have been better without the editorialising comments. It's also odd to editorialise that this is to provide her (to me) absurdity in context but not include any preamble or anything after. Was this a random comment? Response to a question in a livestream? Part of an ill-thought out response to a news story or interview?

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:49

TimeToDateAgain

HazelCarbyFan
I mean, who makes her t-shirts? Likely cheap sweatshop labour. So is everything she says invalidated because she’s not talking about the women who work the sewing machines?
You might email and ask her?

I could, but it would also be silly if some man said women shouldn’t protest publicly until they know everything about the labour behind everything they’re wearing right? Would it be relevant if a man said, “I won’t take women protesting seriously unless they know that every article of clothing they’re wearing is made by someone making a living wage?” No, that would be a huge derail. It is also a derail when White people claim Black people can’t protest racism without being responsible for how the stadium was made.

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 12:48

Thank you. A lot to unpick, and I suspect that at the end of the day we may up agreeing to disagree, which is what often happens when two people have different life experiences but are prepared to listen.

I will confess I assumed you were one on the regular posters who comes on here to denigrate Posie, or indeed any other strong articulate woman. And where the disagreement is not extended to providing argument, but simply attack.

Posie is a marmite figure with strongly expressed views, so disagreeing is fine.

Football is strange. As I said, despite going to 20 or so matches a year I have never heard anything remotely racist. Or indeed any sense fans prefer players because of their skin colour. (Current fan favourite is a guy from Colombia who picks up far too many cards. Previously it was a mixed race striker from the Midlands.) Yet I remember a woke friend, who had never been to a match, essentially accusing me of being racist for following football. She had heard....

Homophobia is different, and it is remarkable to compare the number of "out" players in the women's game compared to the men's. But that is seriously off topic.

334bu · 04/10/2021 12:44

Lisa Nandy!!!

334bu · 04/10/2021 12:44

Lisa Nancy would be the first to support the rights of workers and yet she would put male rapists into female prisoners' cells.

ScreamingMeMe · 04/10/2021 12:43

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

What utter rubbish Hmm

Gottalife · 04/10/2021 12:41

@TimeToDateAgain

You have to see the hate behind the rhetoric. This is someone who wanted armed men to patrol womens toilets.

What an interesting comment. Do you have a link to substantiate this in its context, please?

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 12:40

@HazelCarbyFan

I mean, who makes her t-shirts? Likely cheap sweatshop labour. So is everything she says invalidated because she’s not talking about the women who work the sewing machines?
You might email and ask her?
HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:38

I mean, who makes her t-shirts? Likely cheap sweatshop labour. So is everything she says invalidated because she’s not talking about the women who work the sewing machines?

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:29

Leading to, not leasing.

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:27

My thoughts?

I agree that identity politics as used by the elites - such as the idea that all we need is more Black people on the boards of corporations that harm people and the environment without actually changing the corporate practice - is not about actually helping people achieve equality.

However, if you mean identity politics as in the idea that White people are the default and everyone else’s issues are some annoying add-on, then I disagree.

I am Black and a woman. Both of these things impact my life and cannot be separated. My grandmother came to the UK to work as a domestic from the Caribbean. Her labour was exploited and abused by the White family she worked for. At the end of her life we learned she was raped by the White man she worked for, while his wife - a White woman - also physically abused and degraded her. She had no freedom, no ability to seek work elsewhere, no way to refuse work when she was demanded to work 20 hour days. This history shapes my understanding of feminism - and while many on this board refuse to acknowledge intersectionality this is exactly why race matters in our analysis of feminism. Saying “oh it’s just a class and economic issue why bring up identity” ignores all the ways race also is part of power. Saying that “women’s issues” are universal without considering race ignores the power the White woman had over my grandmother specifically because my Grandmother was a poor, Black, Caribbean woman - poor because she was from a country colonized by the British - who was unable to defend herself specifically because of immigration laws structured against Black people. So no, I don’t think understanding that race also affects women who are not White is vulgar “identity politics.”

My earliest memory is a White boy biking by and screaming racial slurs at me. I am 35 years old. This is not ancient history. I grew up outside of Manchester. My brother got beat up every day on the playground by White boys. When I was 7 years old, 11 year old White boys in my sister’s class surrounded me and asked if I knew what a blowjob is. So how can I understand my life as a woman separate from these experiences of racialized and sexualized violence? But the point isn’t the personal experience, it’s what it reveals about systemic issues - that Black women specifically are at the bottom of society’s racial and economic hierarchy. We cannot talk about capitalism without also talking about the racial labour that keeps capitalism going, and we cannot talk feminism without talking about how Black and other racialized women perform labour - often domestic labour, often in White families - that is the least paid and most open to abuse. This while we face child welfare systems, racism in healthcare, and within the education system as well.

So no, it’s not “identity politics” to discuss how historical forces of racism and colonialism work within capitalism to render Black bodies as property leasing to the exploitation of Black labour.

By the way, I never said PP SHOULD speak about migrancy. I said that people on this board suggesting that her issue with kneeling is that the Black players aren’t acknowledging the forced labour that makes the stadium - largely African and Indian labourers - would make her a massive hypocrite as well since she certainly protests whatever she wants without being demanded to also speak about migrant labour in England. My point was that why are Black people only allowed to speak if they address every single global issue, which certainly isn’t a standard PP or anyone here holds themselves to. Do you think the issue is more likely your - and PPs - discomfort with discussions of racism?

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 12:24

Sorry I left a bit off my tongue in cheek comment:

Is the difference between social conservatism and conservatism roughly equivalent to the difference between libertarianism and liberalism?!

The answer is probably not, but the confusion between libertarianism and liberalism is possibly as much of a problem. I think, no academic sources to back me up, that the idea that anything goes, is what underlies the unease that mothers (and others) feel about the queer agenda.

TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 12:17

You have to see the hate behind the rhetoric. This is someone who wanted armed men to patrol womens toilets.

What an interesting comment. Do you have a link to substantiate this in its context, please?

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 12:17

I always saw social conservatism being things like mothers feeling uneasy about the queer agenda and gimp masks at pride events.

Is the difference between social conservatism roughly equivalent to the difference between libertarianism and liberalism?!

People here will probably disagree, but in economic terms some argue that BJ's government is more socialist than Blair's.

Gottalife · 04/10/2021 12:15

@7H9g5Kj

Great interview. A few weird comments though, like it seems PP dismissed racism as not being an actual problem (the football : taking the knee conversation) and I felt that was off. Also her anecdote about single mothers in pyjamas was quite mean, especially considering the AWOL dads are the real problem.
Just scratch the surface. You have to see the hate behind the rhetoric. This is someone who wanted armed men to patrol womens toilets.
334bu · 04/10/2021 12:10

Was Posie not using this as a way of describing the cognitive dissonance that many on the left exhibit. "Taking the knee to show solidarity for those suffering from racism" and then being willing to go to Quatar to play football in stadia built by slave labour?

TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 12:06

many voters have not bought in to identity politics and sees them as divisive, when they want community.

Yes - I'm interested in the argument that social and cultural conservatism are different from conservative politics.

Firstly, there’s the notion that social conservatism is the bad form of political incorrectness and cultural conservatism the good form. In truth, both kinds of conservatism have their light and dark sides. Social conservatism can be harshly judgmental or it can be about upholding standards that encourage people to the right thing. As for cultural conservatism, that can be exclusive and xenophobic or it can be inclusive and patriotic.

The second myth that needs busting is that the working class voters who moved so decisively from Labour to Tory at the last election are culturally — but not socially — conservative. That’s far too simplistic. It’s true that the key issue of Brexit is one of collective identity. However, the parties of the centre-Left have also alienated their traditional supporters on issues on personal responsibility too, for instance law and order, not to mention work and welfare.

The third and final misconception is that the realignment we saw on the 12th is a sign of growing extremism. For the most part, this is not an extreme country. Nor is it one that is hostile to change — it just needs to be change at a human pace. That means a social conservatism that builds people up, not knocks them down; and a cultural conservatism that bring us together instead of tearing us apart.

unherd.com/thepost/the-difference-between-social-and-cultural-conservatism/

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 12:00

Eh?!

If PP was to take on every cause, she would immediately be accused on being a rent a quote. She talks about women's rights.

The BLM thing is complicated, more complicated than racism being unacceptable. The football team I support, with a majority who are black or bi-racial, choose not to take the knee. Their decisions. Some opposing teams do. Some have a mix with some players taking the knee, others not. They do, however, have a strong video, played before each home match with individual players emphasising that racism has no place in football. And honestly, though I have heard many insults hurled at matches, I have never heard anything racist. (Not least because Gary Cahill gets the brunt of them, especially from London teams.) Wasn't it discovered that the bulk of the racist SM comments came from outside the UK? In the same was as much of the hate PP and other GC women receive could well come outside the UK. Yes there are injustices in other countries, but perhaps the most effective way to tackle these is to get things right here.

And HazelCarbyFan worth watching the link just posted, and which argues that many voters have not bought in to identity politics and sees them as divisive, when they want community. Interesting to have your thoughts.

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 11:45

Well, by that measure PP is also a massive hypocrite if she will condemn Black people kneeling to protest the racism they experience without also taking on issues of migrants - when she herself has never spoken out about the conditions of African and Black migrant workers in the UK. I’m sorry, is she leading protests against the deportations of the Windrush generation? Why must Black people take on every social issue before THEY can protest but PP can sit there and invalidate the racism they experience when she does nothing to fight that racism herself?

The Black players for England experience absolutely vicious racial abuse as we all saw after Euros. Black players get bananas thrown at them when they play in many counties. If they want to kneel to draw attention to that, why is it PP’s right to call them hypocritical any more than men have the right to tell women what and how we should protest? By the way, I don’t see PP - or anyone on this board really - speaking out against the plight of, say, Ethiopian domestic workers in the Middle East either.

I doubt PP’s issue - as she appears on Triggernometry - with Black players kneeling is that they simply don’t take a Pan-Africanist enough approach to fighting racism. She’s not mad that Black players aren’t also acknowledging African migrant workers (since she never acknowledges them either). PP may be good on sims issues but she clearly doesn’t know much about race and racism. You can like what she says about women’s rights and acknowledge she doesn’t know what she’s talking about when it comes to how Black people experience racism and how they should respond.

WarriorN · 04/10/2021 11:35

Yes me, it's a really good companion watch for Posie's interview.

And also alongside Helen Joyce's interview/ q and A at the Tory conference (? I think?) Yesterday.

The three absolutely ties up the mess of U.K. politics and trans ideology/ identity politics completely.

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 11:27

Someone posted this on another thread yesterday

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kf1YKeq7lA

Trigonometry interviewing Matthew Goodwin, a politics professor and analyst, immediately after the last election. He sees the red wall rejecting identity politics and seeing social conservation as a very important factor in turning people away from Labour. Ie voters being influenced by the sort of things KJ has been advocating for a long time. Fascinating and worth a watch.

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