what does it mean "live as a woman"?

And actually I don't think it is sexist that Marion bought a green dress would make us picture a woman. I don't think cultural reflections of sexual dimorphism are inherently sexist.

I just don't see the utility in pretending that we don't understand what it means to "live like a women" in that sense, or even pretending things like sex based pronouns are meaningless. If they were, people wouldn't be upset about applying them to people of the sex they aren't associated with.

The fact that Marion (or Hilary) can be male names, or Michael a female one, doesn't mean that when someone says "Marion went out to the store and she bought a green dress" we don't picture a female person.

Wahey !
The 'Living as a woman one' ...
WE haven't done this one for at least three weeks (I was about ready to bang off a letter of complaint to Mumsnet Towers) ... but I did have confidence that one of you would come through

And you did!

What would constitute living as a woman to you?
What would constitute living as a woman to everybody else who has contributed to this thread ?

In short, ask 100 women, and you'll get 110 different answers. All of them are correct.

Me? I just live 'my' life ... is it as a woman? I dunno (and nor do I care)

I do wonder why it matters to you tho ... (not as a criticism, but more idle curiosity)

To sum it all up ... who gives a shit?

Just live 'your life' and let others live theirs ...

(for the avoidance of misunderstanding ... Yes I am a MTF Transsexual woman)

Men set the expectations of appearance. Of behaviour. Of tone of voice. Of demeanour.

If somebody isn't 'feminine enough' for the almost overwhelmingly male doctors, they get sent away until they can meet the criteria. So they are wholly dependent upon Men gatekeeping what is feminine enough to say they can have medical help to have the appearance that they feel matches their concept of who they are. Chances are that they've already been told throughout their lives that they aren't good enough at being a boy/man by Men, so it makes sense that they are still having to appease them now.

Of course, this means that the Male Gatekeepers aren't going to let the concerns and opinions of Women get in the way. It's not about their opinions to the gatekeepers - it's about Men determining what a Woman is and keeping their power to do so in all circumstances.

And the original reason for having the GRC, to allow marriage, is now redundant.

Repeal the GRC. Modify the Equality Act to speak not of sexual orientation but sexuality, and Bob's your Auntie.

the root of the whole problem is the GRC.

having some kind of quasi official 'sex change' certificate is just bonkers

if you're a man but you want to wear skirts, crack on

you want boobs? I don't want to hear the ins and outs of it, but fine, you do you

you want other cosmetic surgery to make you look more feminine? OK, although obviously the cost / benefit should be weighed up before it's done with public money

but underneath it all, sex remains the same, and there is no need to pretend otherwise

and for children, absolutely no drugs or surgery for gods sake.

My living as a woman involves having short hair, no makeup on, wearing men's joggies and trainers and oh yes, I have a swollen belly with a baby growing in my cervix. David Lammy/Keir might mistake me for a man I suppose... obviously the lipstick and feelz are far more important signifiers.

If a person who is male is using titles or language usually associated with women, and taking on other cultural customs associated with women, there is a sense in which they are doing something different than what is usual, and in a deliberate way. Saying that none of those things makes someone a woman doesn't make that less true.

Yes, they are doing something different to what is usual. However, it doesn't change their sex. Equally, if we accept that these types of generally very sexist behaviours show someone is trying to be a woman then we are taking a step backwards in terms of equality as we are saying these are the standard markers of being a woman.

However, I do fully agree that we all know William is usually a male name and Sue is usually a female name and that she/her are the pronouns we usually use for females. If that was all they were doing it would be fine. However, the problem is the associated trampling on women's rights.

It is really really offensive.

So why does offending so many women like this not matter? In the new climate of offending being hate?

....and the French Men's Football team won the World Cup in 1998 with a team including Lillian, Gael, Fabien, Patrice and Lauren.

It is offensive. I am a woman….with short hair, I don’t wear dresses or heals or make up, I often wear gender neutral clothing and have hobbies that are male orientated, I am 100% female. So how can a man dress up in women’s clothing (which is assumed to be dresses and heals) in order earn their identity as a female?

How is this different from changing sex in a certificate?

Dear Lord. The post demonstrates the ultimate depths of stupidity. Humans cannot change sex.

And you insist in denying that these tests are not desgined on proving you are behaving like a Brit or having the knwoledge of what being British mean, but they are. They explicitly are.

The Way of Life test (or whatever it's called; I've forgotten) is knowing about the laws and customs of Britain as part of the application for citizenship. One can live in the UK without taking British citizenship.

The only markers I apply to determine whether someone is a woman is their biological status. Applying any other markers is sexist.

I look at a person wearing jeans, docs, a hoodie, short hair. They could be male or female. I look at someone who is at home minding their children. They could be male or female. I look at someone working as a plumber. They could be male or female. I look at someone working as a nurse. They could be male or female.

Why are TRAs trying to reverse decades of work that achieved some level (but still a lot to go) of equality of opportunity? Why do they want women and men to be pigeon holed into caricatures of woman/man?

This is all taking the statement out of it's context, which is medicalized and only relevant in a situation where the person in question is not, in fact, a woman.

I'm about as critical of gender ideology as you can be, and I think it does tend to lead to sexism because of the larger implications, but it is not really useful to treat this statement in a way that completely decontextualizes it.

It's not asking you to say that only women can be nurses, or they can't wear hoodies. But I don't really believe that anyone doesn't recognize that William is usually a male name and Sue a female name, or that we have pronouns associated with our sex, or that there are some clothing and fashions that are more associated with one sex than the others. That's not what a stereotype is. And I would maintain that these female associations are not somehow "lesser" than the male ones.

If a person who is male is using titles or language usually associated with women, and taking on other cultural customs associated with women, there is a sense in which they are doing something different than what is usual, and in a deliberate way. Saying that none of those things makes someone a woman doesn't make that less true.

I don't understand the TRA accusation of people 'denying the existence' of trans just by stating the reality that humans cannot change sex. If anything, it's confirming their existence as a human being and not, as others have pointed out, a clownfish that can indeed change sex. Nobody is denying anybody's human existence.
Just like the mantra "trans rights are human rights". Well yes, of course, they are exactly the same as everyone else's 🤷🏼‍♀️

It has nothing to do with "feel[ing] British" or "stereotypes". No one is "adjuciated [a nationality] at birth". Citizenship is determined by the laws of the country in which one is born. In some countries it is determined by the citizen of the mother / father; in others it is determined by being born in the country (ius sanguinis versus ius solis). Very very very few people are stateless by birth.

Citizenship has nothing to do with identity.

Sorry, @camaleon, but your entire post was complete nonsensical woke word salad.

It means what ever the stereotypes the doctor in charge of their treatment believes in. The trans women I've known think it's bullshit but they had to have long hair, wear make-up and dresses all the time or no treatment. It's a problem with the doctors.

“Being a woman is something that I am, not something that I do”
This pretty much sums it up. Is there a manual detailing how to “live as a woman”? Do we all have to do the same things, at the same times or else we’ve failed? I must have been missed off the list. Could someone forward on the Womaning email? Ta!

Biba, Nicole, Sabina and Sarah all died as women.

Do they mean the disadvantages and the harassment as well?

Some of my last year's events as a woman.

Expected to work more for less pay.

Give men priority and be treated as a maid or tea lady at work or events.

Gynae health needs and gynae related pain not taken seriously and treated in a patronising way.

Treated like a crazy person for suffering a miscarriage.

Doctor at A&E treated me like an idiot and refused to assess and X-ray me after a car crash. Told me to go home and have a nice cup of tea and sleep. - had to get an ambulance a couple of hours later and diagnosed with fractures. 6 months later still in pain and having physio.

Tricked to have a hysteroscopy just with paracetamol.

Feeling vulnerable during scans and having to undress for scans and sometimes the creepy male professionals rub their arms on my thighs - I'm sure this is not necessary.

Being over 40 and still being harassed - I thought it stops as we age and we could let our guard down.

Being treated like an idiot by car mechanics and cycle shop staff.

Expected to be a super woman and juggle work, children, home, be fit and slim and not complain.

Questioned, challenged and made to feel guilty for needing a mental health break.

There is so much more .....

[quote camaleon]@Beowulfa All the rules to get a new nationality are based on the rationale that you are 'integrated' one way or another.

Do you identify with a nationality? What does it mean? Can you answer that question without using stereotypes?

I have no clue what a trans person feels. I just accept this as well as the fact this has always existed in every society. I don't need to mock them. It would be much better to use all this energy in finding solutions for a minority that has problems to fit in the world we have as it is.

But go ahead and have a good laugh...[/quote]
Apples and pears.

You don't acquire british nationality by proving that for the last five years you chose tea over coffee, you got excited when England won a football match, talked about the weather a lot and never had fish and chips without mushy peas.

Trans women dont have to sit a test where they asked at what age you can expect perimenopausal symptoms to start, in which year equal pay legislation was passed and how different the signs of cardiovascular disease are in women.