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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils

312 replies

Highwind · 29/09/2021 23:01

Reported by the Guardian....

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

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6
Runningupthecurtains · 30/09/2021 15:55

@yourhairiswinterfire

So people in sports bodies knew they were being brow beaten into doing the wrong thing but were too scared to say anything

I'm so sick of this. Lobby groups and ''the most marginalised'' throwing their weight around, terrorizing everyone into complying with their dangerous ideology.

The misogyny fucking sickens me. Women are just a pesky inconvenience stopping them getting everything that they want, and they think they have the right to just shove us aside and bully us into shutting up to get it.

Don't know how they have the nerve to bleat on about ''fairness'' when they're more than happy to put women in danger of being raped by convicted rapists, in women's prisons. That fair, is it?

Happy for vulnerable women to be psychologically tortured by men in rape crisis centres, refuges etc, causing some to avoid using them. Fair?

Happy for women to have their skulls caved in or their legs snapped in half because they've been forced into playing against males with all the strength and advantage that being male brings. ''Fair and inclusive''.

Anyone who speaks up is a ''bigot'' and hounded and harassed for daring to suggest that women deserve a smidge of fucking consideration too Hmm

Then others see how people are treated for ''stepping out of line'', and don't bother speaking up themselves to avoid the pitchfork mob, and this terrified silence is used as proof that there are ''no problems''.

Sick to fucking death of it.

❤️👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Somebodylikeyew · 30/09/2021 15:48

Honestly, I’m emotional about this.

Thank you, UK Sports Councils. Thank you for being brave enough to speak the truth.

yourhairiswinterfire · 30/09/2021 15:26

So people in sports bodies knew they were being brow beaten into doing the wrong thing but were too scared to say anything

I'm so sick of this. Lobby groups and ''the most marginalised'' throwing their weight around, terrorizing everyone into complying with their dangerous ideology.

The misogyny fucking sickens me. Women are just a pesky inconvenience stopping them getting everything that they want, and they think they have the right to just shove us aside and bully us into shutting up to get it.

Don't know how they have the nerve to bleat on about ''fairness'' when they're more than happy to put women in danger of being raped by convicted rapists, in women's prisons. That fair, is it?

Happy for vulnerable women to be psychologically tortured by men in rape crisis centres, refuges etc, causing some to avoid using them. Fair?

Happy for women to have their skulls caved in or their legs snapped in half because they've been forced into playing against males with all the strength and advantage that being male brings. ''Fair and inclusive''.

Anyone who speaks up is a ''bigot'' and hounded and harassed for daring to suggest that women deserve a smidge of fucking consideration too Hmm

Then others see how people are treated for ''stepping out of line'', and don't bother speaking up themselves to avoid the pitchfork mob, and this terrified silence is used as proof that there are ''no problems''.

Sick to fucking death of it.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 15:09

Yes. The truth is coming out like a burst dam wall.

I am not quite sure who has been at the heart of it. I assume it is sporting bodies following Stonewall advice. And if that is the case, then it must surely be another nail in Stonewall's coffin.

To enforce inclusivity through bullying and coercion... what a great way to respect others. Is the message getting through to people that Stonewall are so hypocritical? Or because people are getting what they want they will simply ignore that it comes at the expense of others and the expense of any past good will?

Don't worry. I know the answer.

OvaHere · 30/09/2021 15:07

@WeeBisom

So stonewall thinks there’s no “inherent conflict between fairness , safety and inclusion.” In fact , these things are mutually supportive! But they don’t explain or provide any argument about why they’re right. We just have to take it at face value.
I am heartened to note that their tweet thread has been up for around 3 hrs now and they've not managed over 100 likes on any of the tweets.

This could change as the other side of the Atlantic wakes up and gets into gear but it suggests that very few Brits support their misogynistic and harmful position of denying fairness and safety to women.

WeeBisom · 30/09/2021 15:01

So stonewall thinks there’s no “inherent conflict between fairness , safety and inclusion.” In fact , these things are mutually supportive! But they don’t explain or provide any argument about why they’re right. We just have to take it at face value.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/09/2021 14:55

So people in sports bodies knew they were being brow beaten into doing the wrong thing but were too scared to say anything

New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils
andyoldlabour · 30/09/2021 14:30

I don't know what makes me more angry, the thought that the NGB's were so spineless and basically stupid, or that they intimidated and threatened current and former athletes from speaking out.
The whole thing reeks of corruption.

Datun · 30/09/2021 14:25

[quote Helleofabore]Now this is a very interesting thread from Dr Hilton.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1443520696877998083?s=20[/quote]
That is a very interesting thread. With absolutely zero surprises, to be honest.

Transgender advocates think that men should be able to play in women's sport, despite acknowledging that they will have an unfair advantage. And anyone who disagrees will be bullied.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 14:18

The tweet thread or as much as I can capture.

Tweeted 11.18 am

Starts

Here is an interesting summary of the interviews/interviewees that Sports Councils UK consulted when developing their new transgender guidelines.

equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Project%20Report%20on%20the%20Review%20of%20the%20Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf
From Page 10 onwards.

Those interviewees who supported inclusion of transgender people, often without any restriction or requirement, made very cogent arguments as to why others were wrong and that over time, they would be shown to have been on “wrong side of history”.

It was suggested that those transgender individuals who wanted to participate in sport were looking to feel part of something: They had often endured a difficult adolescence but perhaps sport was a significant part in their previous life, and they were reluctant to lose this.

They argued that while it was clear that an individual might have an advantage, sport had a long history of there being winners and losers, and that DSD or transgender athletes were entitled to compete at any level.

While it was acknowledged that most transgender women were bigger and stronger than females, the respondents argued that sport includes an inherent level of risk, especially in combat or collision sports, and the organising sports bodies would need to face this reality.

Most of these respondents were opposed to the International Olympic Committee (IOC) approach of mandating a reduction of testosterone levels, and they argued that asking an athlete to take unnecessary medication was unethical, morally unacceptable and discriminatory.

Those working with sports confessed that when faced with the need to make a case-by-case assessment in relation to transgender inclusion, they waived the individual through the process.

They typically justified this approach by saying that they saw the individual concerned as presenting as their patient for whom they should advocate, or they were concerned about any possible legal challenge from an individual or group if they were excluded from participation.

Over ninety individuals interviewed had 20 or more years’ experience in sport and could be described as the sports “professionals” who had a full-time or near full-time involvement in sport.

While they had a shared appreciation and empathy for transgender people and agreed everyone had a right to participate in sport, most considered that it is unfair and unmanageable for transgender women to participate in competitive female sport, with or without requirement.

This view was held by a majority of interviewees from sport, and this included some transgender women.

My note: So during the consultation process, those people actively involved as sports professionals were far more focussed on fairness.

Several current female athletes suggested that although all or most athletes considered transgender athletes have an advantage if they compete in women’s sport, almost no-one would be brave enough to discuss this in public.

Other athletes said that they had been warned not to discuss this topic by their NGB [national governing body] and had been threatened with sanctions such as non-selection if they disobeyed.

Those interviewees who worked within Governing Bodies reported the requirement to meet Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) of accreditation or to meet standards of inclusion and equality, which they saw as an obligation to ‘tow a line’ with which they did not necessarily agree.

They were aware funding for their sport, or their own success within their role, would be compromised if they were to offer any dissent from an agreed corporate requirement.

What a mess.

___

Ends

She is very right. What a mess!

Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 14:14

Now this is a very interesting thread from Dr Hilton.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1443520696877998083?s=20

Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 13:56

Stonewall could not possibly say anything less and retain their current membership.

It is a good reminder though that they have NO intention of accepting compromise at all. Ever.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 30/09/2021 13:42

This reply has been deleted

Post references deleted post Talk guidelines.

NecessaryScene · 30/09/2021 13:42

It assumes that there is an inherent conflict between inclusion, fairness and safety. In reality, the three go hand in hand.

There are times I find the emoji selection on MN a tad limiting.

Saltovinegar · 30/09/2021 13:41

Stonewall need to be properly investigated and stopped from lobbying and being a charity closely followed by Mermaids.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 30/09/2021 13:39

'Will you prioritise females or allow males to cheat'?

Sadly, we can guess the answer.

Ekofisk · 30/09/2021 13:37

Stonewall
@stonewalluk

The truth is that trans women are already participating in sports, without any evidence of unfair advantages or safety risks.

The guidance fails to properly reflect that in its data, and serves only to create confusing distinctions for sporting bodies to navigate.

Well there’s some complete rubbish flat out lies straightaway from Stonewall.

Clymene · 30/09/2021 13:35

I've linked to this website before but high school boys vastly outperform elite women athletes in every category of track and filed and dominate swimming.

boysvswomen.com/#/

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/09/2021 13:32

Stonewall Hmm :

The new guidance on trans inclusion in sport, released by the Sports Councils Equality Group, makes some harmful assumptions.

It assumes that there is an inherent conflict between inclusion, fairness and safety. In reality, the three go hand in hand.

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1443542488879411204?s=19

Jaxhog · 30/09/2021 13:29

Many years ago, I used to be very active in Karate. There weren't many women, so we would practice with the men. But all competitions were against other women. Now, I was hit many times, but it was a man who broke my nose. Believe me, men hit considerably harder than women do because they are considerably stronger and have a longer reach.

Jaxhog · 30/09/2021 13:20

This reply has been deleted

Post references deleted post Talk guidelines.

KohlaParasanda · 30/09/2021 12:48

@McDuffy

When I run parkrun, I want to be the fastest female/woman in my age category. I don't want it to be mixed-sex, as it won't be the truth. That's why we split it in the first place!

My DH ran parkrun at the weekend for the first time in two years and came first, that simply isn't a target for 99%+ of female runners. He even walked three times! Pesky man with pesky longer legs and pesky male physiology that's just all round faster/stronger.

Yes! Let's not be too quick to hand over our protected female category at mass participation races, small local races, or at events like parkrun which are races in all but name. Or play fast and loose with female age group category positions and course records in cyclosportives or open water swimming events. Some of us oldsters are quite competitive and aren't prepared to settle for just competing with ourselves.
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 30/09/2021 12:27

Looking for mis-matches in a competitive game are part of the strategies & tactics that give good teams an edge - for example when I played rugby, building the phases so that we ended up with one of our backs in a straight race against a forward or two - a clear advantage every time.
When I play mixed sex touch rugby, the mismatches are always about getting a male player opposite a female player, as there is always an advantage, and that is part of the game in that specific mixed discipline. There are rules about having a balance of numbers of players of each sex on the pitch at any one time, and then after that, the physical differences become part of the game. It's tactically enjoyable and rewarding. But will only work in TOUCH rugby, for obvious reasons.

Gastonia · 30/09/2021 11:45

My son and daughter (late teens/early 20s) are the same height and near enough same weight. They can share clothes. She’s a wide shouldered, strongly built girl. If anything, she’s fitter than he is. Yet he easily outruns her, out-wrestles her and out-cycles her.
Same - mine are both students, and unfit DS is easily vastly stronger than fit DD, even though they are of similar height and size.

Quadzilla · 30/09/2021 11:26

@Mumoftwoinprimary

This is interesting - I am involved in a sport that has been mentioned above as not being great for women. I am due to go to a women’s event soon. When I booked on it said something along the lines of “for those who identify as women or non binary”. I have just logged onto it to try and get the exact wording and it has changed! It now says “WOMEN and GIRLS only”.

I wasn’t expecting that but it makes me feel slightly positive for the future….

I've seen a couple of events in my area so the same. It's so tempting to ask them if its for male or female non-binary people Grin