New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils

so tennis leagues - maybe the firsts have to obey "competitive" guidance but 2nd team and below can be open.

But the 1sts will all be men or transwomen. Women won't or almost never will make the firsts.

Like the glass delusion, electro shock therapy, vaccines causing autism

Just a mention that if this refers to ECT it’s undeserved. I had it for PND that wouldn’t shift and it worked like magic (3 sessions). I was very reluctant to have it because of the bad press - of course I’d read One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. But I was so glad I did. Yes it has been wrongly applied but that shouldn’t be used to dismiss its therapeutic value.
Of course you may be referring to something else, in which case, apologies.

Yes I've seen some of the smears on twitter, and from some posters on here on other threads who just turn up to insult female scientists who are doing actual research in this area. People who behave like this, throwing insults and not engaging with the science, clearly have nothing of value to add.

If, however, there are people who want to produce an evidence-based response with clear and reasoned arguments then that's great. Unfortunately all the stuff I've seen so far manages to do is argue that trans people doing sport and exercise is a good thing, which I agree with, but without any good reason for them to be in the category for the biological sex they are not.

think we need to be much clearer that silencing, cancelling, threatening and intimidating people who wish to express an opinion is appalling

And yet some of the most vocal TRAs in sport are doing this still, slandering FPFW, Emma Hilton (but unsurprisingly not her male colleague) and organising a response to this report.
Shame on them.

This guidance is now forcing UK sport bodies to choose either fairness and safety, or to be honest that they're discriminating against women. This applies equally at grassroots and elite levels. The Muslim women who left my local British Cycling 'women-only' cycling activity because they knew it wasn't actually single sex, were being discriminated against just as much as an elite female athlete losing out to a transwoman for a place on the Olympic squad. It doesn't matter if women are cycling round the park and learning basic skills or if they are at the Olympics, they should not be ousted from their own sports category by males, when males already have their own category.

I haven't read all the documents associated with this guidance yet, but I was very disturbed by the reports of people being intimidated by their own sports bodies and employers into not being able to speak about this. I think we need to be much clearer that silencing, cancelling, threatening and intimidating people who wish to express an opinion is appalling and those people and organisations who have done this need to be held to account. It's clear that it's not just those people issuing veiled and not so veiled threats online, it seems to be institutionalised silencing of people who want to talk about scientific evidence and women's rights.

Every time SW says something, I can't believe they've crossed the line and gone there this time. And they've managed it again.

They actually cannot care what the reality is on this issue. At all. Surely they cannot be that blinded?

Anyway - about creating some mixed sports - sure, that's great, and there are places where that would be very appropriate. But the fact is that it's not really "trans-inclusive" sports, it's mixed men's and women's.

Even individual sport there is hugging tears commiseration joy etc.

Wouldn't this be a step back for male mental health?

How many men and boys want loads of mixed sport anyway?

They also prefer to compete train with those with the same physiology- male advantage.

If a cub has 8 girls and 2 boys and the other boy is not v good at it at all Then he'll just walk everything. He loses the opportunity to enjoy real competition, the feeling of winning, the desire to keep working hard to keep winning, the knowledge that others could beat him etc. The excitement, the benefits of training with those more evenly matched.

I can't imagine most will be keen.

And that's even without a stack of other stuff.
Losing to a girl
The whole male team and bonding thing which obv has issues. But also seems to be very important to many. It's said men are socialised not to show emotion. Sport for men is a place it is almost obligatory. Joy, upset, frustration, comforting each other, hugging, slapping on the bum (?!).
Why should they lose that?

I still can't believe the level of strategic planning. And that no one in the govt police anyone with a voice. Raised it as a ???.

I think you overestimate the level of co-ordination and underestimate the role of stupidity.

Like the glass delusion, electro shock therapy, vaccines causing autism, evangelical millenialism and Naziism it's a totally stupid idea that is really attractive to some people. These things gain a life of their own and attract all sorts of grifters, nutjobs and people who want to seem important.

I think for a long time people didn't object because those with the brains to see it as vaccuous probably didn't believe anyone could literally mean that TWAW. Not putting rapists in women's prisions and ending womens sports- surely no-one would actually think that's a good idea? Even now I think a lot of people still convince themselves we've misunderstood- hence why you get the 'nobody is saying...' lot.

At every level women/girls will leave sport in their droves if a) they are beaten week in week out by someone who has the huge advantage of a male body b) if they are getting hurt/injured by competing against bodies that have been through male pubity or they fear that they will be c) they encounter a penis in the showers/changing rooms, or fear that they will d) they work hard, training hard, make sacrifices and achieve amazing results but see the awards and accolades go to TW (New Zealand sports women of the year going not a female gold medal winner but to a man who crashed and burned at the Olympics. It might be funny if it wasn't so bloody sad. A crap bloke is regarded as a better woman than a high achieving woman e) if men become the voice of women in sports by walking into roles as women reps/officers or the voices for inclusion and diversity.

Men should not compete in women's sport at any level. Yes there is mixed training in some sports, yes there are male coaches of female teams/competitors but they are there as men not as women. Men don't belong in any space or role that is for women.

So yes if ground up it would have slowly raised prominence. Politians public papers etc would have raised questions discussed debated before changing the status quo.

The fact it was a fucking done deal in massive things sets a precedent.

How the hell did they get essentially sex ignored in everything in favour of gender. And now we have to right to change it back.

It's a massive failure of the whole way democracy should work. The way this was done, lobby groups getting this massive change with huge impact and changing policies in prison etc with zero public awareness. Shows that our systems essentially don't work. And that's huge.

This is the impressive thing about this movement.

Groundwork was put in for years. This was thought out, strategic.

Get to talk to govt high ups behind closed doors.
Get policies and guidelines quietly updated.
The success of this is incredible. Unbelievable. Eg police changing from recording sex of those arrested etc. To gender on self ID. AND that a FOI to loads of forces. The ones that replied all said NO RECORD AT ALL of when this change was made or why.

I'm sure there's other stuff as well. Info on other threads about it.

It was always top down. Never ground up. And by the time it started to come to public notice, and some orgs individuals started making noise about it. Loads was already a done deal.

With no awareness let alone input from women or the general public.

I still can't believe the level of strategic planning. And that no one in the govt police anyone with a voice. Raised it as a ???. Or went to the press.

I mean it's a massive fundamental change of how it's been forever. To replace sex with a statement about how you feel about yourself.

The long-awaited report argues there is no magic solution which balances the inclusion of trans women in female sport while guaranteeing competitive fairness and safety. And, for the first time, it tells sports across Britain that they will have to choose which to prioritise.

It is beyond me that these even need to be weighed up. Why ever should there even be "inclusion of transwomen in female sport" to begin with.

And I suppose the response to that could be. If they're used to mixed sport that will really reduce that socialised male response.

But it won't because the boys and men will generally beat the women and girls.

Any thoughts on that aspect?

Split into pairs take grip see who can do this move on the other to get them down.

First time vaguely watching.

Second bout switch partners. They check all have switched. Two girls had stayed together. One I had noticed over the weeks was v good. They looked incredibly reluctant when switched to boys. Or more, one looked like had to go to her doom and the other sympathetic.

The good one and a boy were in front of me so I watched the bout. Assuming the girls reaction was cos they were mates.

The girl beat the boy pretty easily. They instructor said same thing again and she just looked. Resigned. Bout started. Boy was obv a bit pissed off at breeding beaten before. Much more rough etc.

She beat him fairly easily. He went bright red with I suppose anger and humiliation? Got up. For a moment I thought shit the instructors haven't noticed in going to have to do something, because I could see that he was really on the verge of punching her in the face hard. She looked worried and backed away a bit. He stormed off, tearing up.

Yes it was a one off at the place.

But I've beaten boys and men at stuff (not sport) and the vast majority DO NOT LIKE IT AT ALL. And even adult men will start to feel like that boy did if you eg beat them at pool 3 times in a row.

A male competing in women's sports events once tried to murder a sporting official and left that man with life-changing injuries. Whenever kindness, fairness and, 'What harm does it do? get trotted out, I think it behoves us to remind people that someone was almost murdered over this issue and it wasn't a woman, let alone a feminist, holding the knife. If they haven't heard about Ralph Knibbs that's because the media buried the story as much as was possible. Can you imagine how much coverage sports journalism would have given to the story if an official had almost been murdered over any other ethical issue?

The thing with mixed stuff as well.

In theory it's great and I'm sure in practice it often works as well.

But.

There is another problem which will present, no idea whether a little or a lot.

And that is male socialisation.

DD used to do judo. She was in group aged 10- 13 or something like that. Mixed which I felt fine. I mean they wouldn't have the money volunteers numbers of both sexes to run it separate. Splitting into sexes when having a bout no good as far fewer boys. Anyway it was mixed. Cool. I was impressed by the men who taught who were lovely and obv more than happy to have girls there (not all men are unbiased mostly they don't realise they're doing it).

Anyway...

As a result, participation rates in sport and physical activity for trans people are poor. Research from 2019 (Outsport) shows that 54% of trans people feel excluded from particular sports or have at some point stopped participating in a particular sport as a result of discrimination around their gender identity, whilst 47% of trans women who are active in sport reported at least one negative personal experience in their sport as a result of discrimination and transphobia in the preceding 12 months.

This has nothing to do with sex segregation of sports though does it! Again the conflation. The report makes clear what was totally obvious that it's neither safe nor fair for women to have to compete against males in sports, in the vast majority of sports. That isn't transphobia, just a scientific fact that was obvious and has now been reiterated based on all of the evidence available from scientific studies of decent quality.

As for the content of the quote about the "transphobia", what do they mean? Women deciding that men won't compete in their sports? Or men being discriminatory against other men who feel a different "gender identity" to them and like to dress differently? The former is protected by law and they need to stop attacking for the various obvious reasons discussed here for years. The latter is where they should be focusing their energy: feeling comfortable to compete jn the appropriate sports team/ competition based on their SEX no matter what their "gender" is.

And pretty much everything else / everything else.

Girls need to be able to try different things, continue those they enjoy and/ or are good at. Fairly. Because if its all mixed, after a certain age, if there are any boys. They will most often be defeated before they compete. No chance to win at all, often. Not feeling the joy of winning or funny well. Not having the same gauge of improvement. In short. If you never stand a chance then it's far less satisfying, uplifting, the urge to improve yourself is less.

This goes through all the clubs and the local regional etc events that are the background to most successful sports people. The most successful sports people are also driven. To get better faster stronger. To WIN. take that away and the number of women in sports will reduce across the board.

The thing is that women and girls are in society mainly and deep down. Not really meant to be competitive. To complete with the determination and yes aggressive mindset. Not anger but that massive desire to put everything into beating the others.

You can have trans "inclusion" if you want but do it knowing that we all know that you are doing it absolutely at the expense of safety and fairness in sport for women and girls.

Yes, thankfully the truth is finally out - really wondered if I'd ever see the day not too long ago.

Really enjoyed that podcast. No punches pulled on cutting through all the bullshitting.

You can have trans "inclusion" if you want but do it knowing that we all know that you are doing it absolutely at the expense of safety and fairness in sport for women and girls.

It is a choice plain and simple.

And this. How has it come that the most marginalised ever can frighten so many people. Fucking unbelievable

Ross Tucker is fantastic. He speaks with such clarity and integrity. Great podcast!