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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Ideology (non) debate within La Leche League International

38 replies

ixqik · 29/09/2021 02:53

Graham Linehan's Substack has revealed some interesting details regarding controversy in LLL International which is the umbrella organisation for all LLL groups outside of the USA. Therefore LLLGB, LLL Canada, etc are under the LLLI umbrella. This controversy is mirrored within breastfeeding organisations in all the English speaking nations and I suspect in many non-English speaking nations too. What they have in common is that they are all from higher income Western Countries. The ideology is now being forced upon the middle and low income countries with a fist in a velvet glove. This is therefore the richer Global North imposing on the poorer Global South. It is ideology being exported to those who have little or no voice.

The most recent communication to LLL is below and is for reference for anyone who finds the content useful for research, the media, and for communicating with their own birth and breastfeeding organisations.

OPEN QUOTE 8 September 2021

Dear LLLI Board of Directors and the Executive Director,

In responding to the 9 August 2021 letter, initially signed by 227 current and former Leaders, we feel that the LLLI Board is exhibiting a lack of cultural humility in claiming that what some consider appropriate language in the United States (U.S.), and in Western countries influenced by U.S. culture, should also be applied to ancient and present day cultures around the world. This is cultural and linguistic imperialism.

We call on the Board to listen to Leaders from diverse countries, beliefs, backgrounds and cultures who have asked for your respect and consideration.

It is important that…

• LLLI stay true to the LLL mission statement,
• LLLI keep its focus on the breastfeeding mother-baby dyad, and
• LLLI publications, whether in print or digital, reflect LLL philosophy.

Furthermore, we wish to make you aware that a further 40 Leaders have signed the letter since we sent it (total of 267 Leaders) and two more countries, Colombia and Malaysia, have been added (a total of 45 countries). Attached is the letter on LLLI Language with the additional signatures and countries. From time to time we may provide further updates of signatures that have been added.

We would request that the attached letter that includes all the signatures not be shared with those who were not included as recipients. If needed, we would be happy to provide a redacted version for sharing with others.

SincereLLLy,
_
CLOSE QUOTE

My personal views are as follows: "It has been years that Leaders have been in communication with the LLL International board and they feel like LLLI's responses have been to ignore the complaints, kick it into the long grass, and when pushed to reply it is always inadequate and remain centring trans women and non-binary men. I say 'transwomen' since trans men are women and therefore will always be welcomed by Leaders becuase they are biological females. They also have unique difficulties with breastfeeding much like many other women do and why LLL exists. Women who have a baby in SCBU (special care baby units - aka pre-term), babies with congenital birth defects or birth injuries, babies who are tongue tie, mothers who have birth trauma, post-partum depression, breastfeeding while using a range of medications, mothers with breast hypoplasia, with diabetes, with breastfeeding aversion, mothers breastfeeding twins, single mothers, mothers in abusive relationships, mothers in prison, mothers who are homeless, mothers who are asylum seekers, mothers living in poverty... to name many, but not inclusive of all difficulties they may face.

None of these mothers expect their unique difficulties and life experiences to be centered because LLL is a shared space for all mothers , mothers as it is defined by the dictionary. Trans (men & women) and non-binary (again, men & women) identities are more important than immutable biological realities. Therefore the centring of identities rather than the female sex gives biological males equal opportunity to all La Leche League meetings, support help line, and magazine articles, and so on. This destruction of a female centred space has significant and unintended safeguarding concerns for mothers and babies. However the knee-jerk reaction has been to debase any concerns as anti-trans, homophobic, and racist bigotry. Concerns for safeguarding women and babies should never be conflated with any of these ideas.

La Leche League was created because mothers and the breastfeeding work they did was invisible and in danger of becoming extinct in the Western world. La Leche League is in danger of destroying its own raison d'etre as La Leche League no longer speaks for mothers or to mothers."

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DaisiesandButtercups · 20/11/2021 09:47

Some here may be interested in this website

www.mothersformother.com/

There is a comments page too if anyone would like to show support for this group fighting for clear communication, sex based language and keeping mothers and babies at the centre in breastfeeding support.

DaisiesandButtercups · 01/10/2021 08:54

And La Leche League held firm through all the years when that misguided strain of feminism was rising in popularity, now La Leche League falls so suddenly to an even more misguided form of what I feel moved to call masculinism abandoning its founding mission in a heartbeat.

EdgeOfACoin · 01/10/2021 08:37

It starts with downplaying the importance of motherhood and mothering to humanity.

I agree. Sadly, I do think some forms of feminism have not helped with this. In the desperation to show that women do not have to be only mothers, motherhood itself has been devalued in some quarters.

It is a mindset I have fallen into myself in the past.

DaisiesandButtercups · 01/10/2021 08:28

worldnutritionjournal.org/index.php/wn/article/view/825/675

I agree with this article, it is a mother’s prerogative to breastfeed or not. We as mothers should be the focus of breastfeeding support, not families, not communities, not fathers, co-mothers, mothers-in-law, not great aunt Alice or anyone else.

That in fact was the radical notion which La Leche League began with, mothers matter and breastfeeding matters. Mother and baby are a dyad and should be supported together as such so that both can thrive. The mother-baby relationship was at the heart of La Leche League but now what is it? Human milk bought off the shelf? Babies bought from the shop next door? I can’t help but see all this newspeak as being about severing the mother baby connection and further commodifying women’s bodies and now children too. It starts with downplaying the importance of motherhood and mothering to humanity.

EdgeOfACoin · 01/10/2021 07:07

@Spiindoctor

I'm sure men get breast cancer in their breasts, it' snot called chest cancer. Men have breasts.
Men have 'a breast' rather than 'breasts'. I think this is what the law decided once, in a case about voyeurism.

Your point still stands, though!

Guineapigbridge · 01/10/2021 06:58

All I can add is Stewie feeding from Peter (purile)

Spiindoctor · 01/10/2021 06:48

Then what's with the chestfeeding?

Jaysmith71 · 30/09/2021 13:09

I'm sure men get breast cancer in their breasts

Around 5% of all cases.

Breast tissue is any and all tissue between the pectoral muscle and the skin.

ixqik · 30/09/2021 12:46

This article looks at the cultural and linguistic imperialism by LLL but it also happens in other organisations from what I've seen.

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EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/09/2021 11:23

@Spiindoctor

I'm sure men get breast cancer in their breasts, it' snot called chest cancer. Men have breasts.
If you will forgive the terminology, warriors had breastplates.

I'd agree that chest cancer would be such a broad and misleading category (pulmonary, cardiac involvement - pretty much anything in the general vicinity).

Spiindoctor · 30/09/2021 11:06

I'm sure men get breast cancer in their breasts, it' snot called chest cancer. Men have breasts.

DaisiesandButtercups · 30/09/2021 10:55

@Jaysmith71

Any mention of Samoa and I think of Margaret Mead and those fit young Samoan boys keen to tell her all about Free Love.
I have her book “Male and Female”.

Perhaps it should be compulsory reading at universities where they think the sexes were invented by Western cultural imperialists and imposed on the rest of the world

DaisiesandButtercups · 30/09/2021 10:52

Breastfeeding and birth organisations can create separate resources aimed at those who prefer gender neutral language and retain mother centred for the majority. This is how other minority languages, beliefs, medical conditions, family circumstances, cultural practices are dealt with. Never before has it been assumed that the right way forward is to apply adaptations for a minority need across the board to everyone.

TaraRhu · 30/09/2021 10:28

It's disgusting. Women have fought for years to remove stigmas surrounding their breasts and to have some confidence around feeing their children without feeling embarrassed. Many still find this extremely hard. We can push all this good work back onto the closet where words like vagina, breast, nipple are sniggered at with a school room level of immaturity.

A trans man who wants to breastfeed has breasts. I'm sorry, but that's what they are. It doesn't take away his make identity it is simply a body part, like a spleen or lung. He also has a womb otherwise he could carry a child. You can't say you 'are a man' on one hand but still take advantage of the female parts of you and expect women to be ok rebranding them to suit you. Women must rise against this. Trans men should rise against this, to pretend tgst they are biologically male ignores basic science

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/09/2021 10:26

Not at all surprised that they trot out all that ideological nonsense about two sexes being imposed by Western cultural imperialism. So condescending and ignorant!

Yeye Luisah Teish on Rainbow flag imperialism gave a fascinating overview of Yoruba traditions and how culture and traditions are ignored/suppressed by NGOs (she's very clear there are 2 sexes). She also shared her experience of being a black woman in the US.

Yeye:

Jaysmith71 · 30/09/2021 10:00

Any mention of Samoa and I think of Margaret Mead and those fit young Samoan boys keen to tell her all about Free Love.

DaisiesandButtercups · 30/09/2021 09:42

Thanks for sharing this ixqik.

It is crazy making that LLLI can’t see that queer theory will destroy everything that the organisation has stood for over the past 65 years.

Not at all surprised that they trot out all that ideological nonsense about two sexes being imposed by Western cultural imperialism. So condescending and ignorant! They obviously remain oblivious to what the president of Samoa said about Laurel Hubbard…

LimpLettice · 29/09/2021 20:21

I say it every time this comes up, but it makes me so angry. Not only is it using an infant as a prop, for validation at best, and probably for much darker purposes; its yet again encroaching on spaces for extremely vulnerable women. We know abusive men activate / ramp up during pregnancy and the newborn days, imagine being hounded into your BF groups. Or being from a culture which simply cannot feed in front of males.

That's bad enough but the thought of an org like LLL actively promoting males feeding Christ knows what to hungry infants is grotesque. I'm a long term BFer over 3 babies, multiple diabetic pregnancies, and the way my body has been monitored and policed over every single intake from meds to sugar to alcohol to fecking tuna. Well. Which is fine. But LLL want to coach men to induce something akin to lactation? For babies who should be developing a delicate and important feeding relationship with their mother, or getting their very important nutrients from formula? It's so wrong.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/09/2021 16:58

This has reminded me that I don't know what happened to Annette Lawson (brave former trustee of the Fawcett Society iirc) when she spoke up when the interim FS CEO was busy blocking everyone.

FedUpAtHomeTroels · 29/09/2021 16:53

Poor Marian, I had no idea that any of them were still alive.
Absolutly disgusting behaviour.
Sadly it will now become a group that attracts a bunch of weirdos and any sane Mum won't touch them with a bargepole.
Who on gods green earth would want to feed their new baby a concoction of drugs that makes a male produce liquid I somehow doubt is has any milk content. I'd rather bottle feed formula as I know it's safer than that.

Franca123 · 29/09/2021 15:21

What the previous poster just said........

MarshmallowSwede · 29/09/2021 14:55

Women are still shamed for breast feeding in public.. and this is what they choose to prioritize???

Men chest feeding.. a sexual fetish? We are far down the rabbit hole and I’m disgusted.

tiktok · 29/09/2021 14:37

@Franca123 you can DM me if you like. I’ll try to answer.

Anontwentyone · 29/09/2021 14:29

@Franca123

I have so many questions on male lactation but I think i would banned if I asked them here. Can anyone guess my unsayable question and point me in the direction of an answer? I read a little into the subject once and immediately felt very uncomfortable. Red flags flying everywhere. Is it just me?
A male can only lactate if they take drugs.

Women who identify as men can lactate the same as all women.

Unless they've had mastectomy or taken T which starts to become a pointless conversation because any woman who does that will struggle with lactation

ixqik · 29/09/2021 14:11

@FedUpAtHomeTroels

Holy hell, I was a member of LLLI 33 years ago and then a leader too for years. The founding mothers will be turning in their graves with all this crap. We didn't even allow fathers to stay at meetings with their wives and babies as there were Mums there who were asking sensitive questions and trying breastfeeding while in the meeting. The world has gone mad.
Marian Thompson, one of the founding mothers and who is in her 90s, had her Facebook page trolled by a transactivist who is also a well-known name and IBCLC. This person posted pro-trans posts to Marian's page everyday for a number of days and who encouraged others to go on there and 'educate' Marian. Their behaviour doesn't seem to have a bottom. Marian's crime was to post one of Janice Turner's articles earlier this year.
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