Robin Moira White on Woman's Hour Now (Tuesday 28/9)

Society expects people to fit into boxes

Ummm, I think actual women learn that when they're girls - I certainly realised this at about the age of 10.

Transwomen just don't get this, because they're born and raised as boys and men. They haven't experienced girlhood.

But actual women fight and battle against the boxes patriarchy tries to push us into. Not police stereotypes such as "skirt & heels" (I should also join many of you in the queue for the Gents in future, obviously).

I'd remove the words "almost like" from your post WeeDonkey. It is.

Then they said would you mind waiting in this side room as men aren't allowed in this waiting room unless they are the patient and we want the women waiting to be as comfy as poss.

The Atmos relaxed.

And I'm not surprised. And it's fair enough.

At ours men are not allowed into that waiting area if they are with the patient for that reason.

All very sensible and easy and not a problem or shouldn't be.

(Although there was a male man kicking off on Twitter a while back about it being awful and unfair and sexist that he wasn't allowed in with his friend when she had to go).

Men are so arsey about anything for us. I mean loads and loads even 'nice' ones. I've met loads. They genuinly see at all an affront, an insult, that women are getting special stuff that they can't have. That's massive privilege and entitlement for you.

Yes especially getting up and refilling the hot water bottles five times a night to make sure you're really hot, not just nice and warm

I suppose it's not much fun turning on the heating, having an electric blanket and 15 hot water bottles every live long night for years.

It would take a certain level of dedication!

An understandable mistake

There was no mistake.

If 'talking about periods' is now transphobic, the word has lost all meaning.

I now hear news reports on 'transphobic abuse' and assume it means 'mentioned a biological fact'. That's not fair on sufferers of actual abuse.

If people can be so certain of the benefits of transition for "trans kids", then why hold back on cross-sex hormones and further treatments for so long? Surely that would be cruel.

The answer of course is that anyone who's read up on this knows the certainties aren't there and these days no one can be sure if a "trans kid" is indeed trans.

One of the saddest things I've encountered is a well known child transitioner saying that they understood (in their zero experience) that having an orgasm was like having a sneeze.

On the other hand absolutely everything can also be a fetish (except menopause for some reason)

Gosh, it's never occurred to me, but I think that's right! I suppose it's not much fun turning on the heating, having an electric blanket and 15 hot water bottles every live long night for years.

Everything you just wrote about periods and stuff? Transphobic.
Not even kidding.
Theres a phrase used is it weaponising our biology or something like that, how very dare we talk about our own biology in our own groups with the same type of cunty people who also can go through these biological acts of warfare.
On the other hand absolutely everything can also be a fetish (except menopause for some reason) so we are supposed to indulge such things whilst never talking about such things.
It's a proper head scratcher innit?

'You can't have it both ways'.

At the moment, we appear to have it not at all. Men in women's facilities, and experimental meds for children too young to understand.

Meanwhile, older male transitioners grumble about unwanted male puberty.

Dear god, you don't know you're born, do you? No periods, no cramps and blood loss during exams/lessons/holidays, no hormonal contraception, no mastitis, no prolapse, no miscarriages, no hyperemesis, no fibroids, no PMT, no pregnancy-related incontinence, no fucking bastard menopause.

That's before we get to the man-imposed and society-imposed rather than body-imposed difficulties.

Do us a favour and leave the women's loos and women's wards to the genuinely female half of the population. We have enough to cope with and we'd like our privacy for it.

You may not have had vocal feminisation surgery but your sense-of-ironyectomy was a complete success.

Here’s a $64,000 question, and I wish you’d come back on to answer it, Robin:

If a ten or eleven year old told you they were, and had always been, non-binary/neutrois/asexual, do you think they would at that age be competent to consent to puberty blockers as a first step towards later nullification surgery and vasectomy/hysterectomy at age 16-18?

If not, why not?

Not sexy enough I guess, which tells you everything you need to know about the motivations behind it.

I’d really like Robin to come back on the thread and provide a full opinion as to why it would be acceptable to say that pre-pubertal children “know their own mind” about a complex medical treatment related to their future full sexual function, fertility and/or sexuality; when it isn’t acceptable to say that about, for example, pre-pubertal children getting married, having sex, enlisting in the army, voting, and so on.

And even if one did believe pre-pubertal children could meaningfully understand this, how would you design a test to make sure you knew which ones did understand the full implications and which didn’t?

(And none of this has to do with Gillick competence by the way.)

Listening to RMW on Women's Hour - I find it worrying that someone who presents as a legal expert has such a poor grasp of the reality of the law.

Also, RMW says they would have transitioned in RMW's 20s so puberty blockers are irrelevant

I don't think anyone should have surgery they don't want in order to change how they appear to others.

Good point Artichokeleaves. It doesn't really matter what laddo with his cock out at the Wi Spa sounded like when he said "but it's a lady dick!" , does it?

If you oppose assisting young people who know their own mind with puberty blockers you have to accept that some trans women will retain deeper voices.

I'm perfectly happy for TW to have whatever voices they choose to have. Why wouldn't I be?

It doesn't matter if a male is bass voiced or soprano: it makes no odds at all to the fact that many female people need female only spaces to exist. And words that they can describe themselves by. And the ability to define themselves and group and organise themselves and have an inch of this world to do things without being organised, harassed and controlled by male people who feel entitled to do so.

But we can't have that either can we... no "conversion" therapy for deeply troubled young people.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say these kids are certain enough in their own minds to make irreversible changes AND that they are vulnerable and about to commit suicide. Anyone who is suffering and suicidal is NOT in a good place to make big decisions from.

If adults who have had some time to experience a bit more of life, are able to understand what sexual pleasure and fertility are, then are happy to give that up in order to transition, then that is their right (though I would note that plenty of young people think they don’t want children and then may later change their mind).

For some trans people, it may well be worth sacrificing sexual function or fertility for greater ability to “pass” cosmetically as the opposite sex. Becoming dependent on surgery and hormones lifelong may well be an acceptable price to pay to alleviate psychological distress.

But a child who hasn’t even begun puberty to embark on a treatment that has a high chance of them giving up their future full sexual function, health and fertility? They cannot possibly understand the consequences of that. How can a child who may never have even had an orgasm ever fully understand what it means to embark on a treatment that may well lead to permanent loss of sexual function or fertility?

Or maybe children that actually received proper psychological help wouldn't grow up feeling like they need to damage their bodies in order to live out a fantasy of being the opposite sex.

There are, and I have explored them carefully, but given that I’m an oral advocate the risks of the more extreme forms of vocal surgery are too great.

A recognition that surgery can be harmful when weighing up the pros and cons for your own health.

Followed by:
If you oppose assisting young people who know their own mind with puberty blockers you have to accept that some trans women will retain deeper voices.

No consideration of the harm done to children by treating them with powerful drugs with harmful and irreversible effects at an age when they don't have the capacity to give fully informed consent.