More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

It is amazing how much nonsense gets attributed to people for simply knowing the truth about what transgender means!

Oh! That was disappointing. I thought we were going to be offered a meaningful set of scenarios to debate.

But we got hogwash instead.

Sorry, Rob it doesn't make sense, is fairly offensive and, assuming it was an honest attempt, highlights your lack of knowledge.

Try again, we'll still be here

Merrymouse, those statements are so much clearer. And maybe we can add that women on this board of course believe that homosexuality is real.

I honestly don’t know who would make any such offensive statements. Extremely religious US right wing groups?

This is a fairly left wing feminist board. Mainly concerned with safeguarding and the rights of women and girls.

This is why the data should always record sex. The biological reality bit should not be lost. This doesn't change and is independent of any 'gender identity'.

How can women's prisons even provide or plan for women's needs if they don't record this?

I was assuming that statement 1 was intended to represent what homophobic people think, statement 2 was intended to be what the “transphobic” women here think, and they were constructed and presented in that way to demonstrate how homophobic people and supposedly transphobic posters here are two equivalent cheeks of the same bigoted arse.

It doesn’t work because I don’t think Robin has grasped the fundamentals of the Gc position in order to be able to represent it properly.

Anyone who says they're gay is lying because homosexuality isn't real.

Yes, this what Stonewall appear to believe.

Gender is a biological characteristic

No, gender is social and cultural expectations of how a man or woman should behave. Concepts of masculinity and femininity differ with time and place so are not stable, but they have fairly consistently been used to oppress women.

Sex is biological and relates to reproduction in all species.

Cultural and social constructs are certainly real, but they don’t impact on biology. People like Judith Butler believe gender is performative.

You seem a little confused by this subject - would you like some book recommendations?

I have a sentence. One of robin's sentences has been very illuminating.

My point is that prejudice doesn't disappear simply because it becomes socially unacceptable. It mutates into more acceptable forms.

Very succinct explanation of how the socially acceptable form of misogyny has mutated using 'gender identity' (trumping sex) as the vehicle. Reframing women as inherently more privileged than any male who wants it to be declared so. Yet (and this is where this thread started as can't be sure of the data) oddly not a discrete biological reality. This can be used as a vehicle to browbeat women, and even adopt a virtuous air whilst doing so. You can even take away safety and fairness from women and call it levelling up.

If that doesn't wash, people can always unleash scurrilous accusations on the women who aren't buying this rebranding. Or indeed insult or threaten them with violence, and criminalise them for thought crimes.

Both of those are nonsense statements made up of unrelated pieces of nonsense.

*Statement 1

Sexuality is a biological characteristic. Men like women and women like men and that can't be changed. Anyone who says they're gay is lying because homosexuality isn't real. It's a choice. We should make sure that gay people can't join the Scouts because they're only doing so to rape little boys.*

Are you accusing the posters on here of not believing in the existence of lesbians or gay people? Do you realise that many of the posters on here are lesbians? How does the first part of this 'statement' relate to the nonsense statement 'homosexuality isn't real. It's a choice'? As for the last part of your 'statement' which is deeply offensive and which no-one here believes, I really think you've outdone yourself in being offensive and hateful.

*Statement 2

Gender is a biological characteristic. Men are men and women are women and that can't be changed. Anyone who says they're transgender is lying because being transgender isn't real. It's a choice. We should make sure that transgender people can't use the women's toilets because they're only doing so to rape women.*

Yet again, no-one is saying transgender people don't exist. You have yet to show a single quote from any poster here to back up this statement so you are just repeating a lie. Transgender women are male and are not entitled (due to their sex) to access single sex spaces which are exemptions set out in the Equality Act 2010.

I'll have a go at statement 1

Sexuality is a biological characteristic. Yes, and apparently some studies say a little bit of nurture too.

Men like women and women like men.. We have plenty of proof otherwise and some people aren't into either.

..and that can't be changed I guess people may realise they like women and men or neither.

Anyone who says they're gay is lying because homosexuality isn't real. It's a choice. Wrong, it's provable by the way the body reacts when you fancy someone.

We should make sure that gay people can't join the Scouts because they're only doing so to rape little boys. Not sure how that links to any of the above?

I'm not breaking cover? How bizzare.

I know what transgender means. It's not a scientific fact that the word transgender means males are female. Transgender is an identity.

Gender is a biological characteristic No, sex is a biological characteristic.
Men are men and women are women and that can't be changed - I agree with this.
Anyone who says they're transgender is lying because being transgender isn't real - no. Changing sex is impossible. People being trans is real- real in the sense that that is their conception of themself, and they exist.
It's a choice - it absolutely can be. Otherwise the population of trans people would stay fairly constand across times and societies, the same way that the number of gay men and lesbians does, regardless of how accepting the society around them is. If it was truly innate, youwouldn’t see things like the 4000% increase of teenage girls being referred for gender identity issues that has happened recently, or the groups of friends all coming out as trans/non binary in quick succession.
We should make sure that transgender people can't use the women's toilets because they're only doing so to rape women - no. Not least for the fact that the population of trans people who are trans men certainly have my support to use the women’s toilets as necessary. And no feminist has ever framed it like this. It’s the worst possible interpretation.

I thought we were getting somewhere with the thought experiment. I tried. But both statements don't make sense. I would agree with the previous poster about starting with a single statement or two.

So, to recap.

You are still attributing negative generalisations to posters as well as doing some pretty damining personal attacks on this thread.

And you have not addressed the issue of the fat fingers as far as I can see. Care to do that and stop attributing MN posters with the hateful attitudes that you keep posting are there but that actually are not.

By the way, that kind of activity is what MN was deleting you for initially.

Sorry, both those statements as a whole are absolute bollocks and also incredibly offensive.

They are also made up of a number of different sub statements. Some also incredibly offensive. It gives me a head ache to try to line them all up and refute them one by one.

Could we start with a single statement or two?

Oh goodie. A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT, everyone gather around because we have never been issued one of these... for a day any way...

You are now going down the path of saying that safeguarding should be thrown asunder for any person who is a male transitioner. That is what I make of your two sentences.

And that YOU believe we have said anywhere that all transitioned males are rapists (not one poster has stated this so it is yet another lie from you).

Both of those statements are appalling, robin

Is option 2 really what you think women here think? Jesus Christ.

robin, neither of those statements make any sense. Sorry. Maybe try again?

Of course I believe that trans people exist. I also believe that they have rights, and I fully support them to live their lives as they please.

I just don’t think that they can compel me to share their take on their identity, agree that their interpretation of the world is the only possible correct one, or support the belief that gender identity ought to supplant sex in how we organise civil life in this country.

And I would never and have never used the slur beginning with T.

To have a civilised debate you can’t misrepresent the other side like that, you have to leave room for good faith.

Only one person on this thread seems to be looking at these statistics and suggesting that no further analysis is necessary to check whether their theory is correct.

I would call that prejudice.

Apologies, its become quite difficult to keep up with the replies and the thread is a mess because of my inability to quote properly.

So, rather than make it even worse, I thought a little exercise could be illuminating and make my point a little clearer.

Here's two statements. I'd be very grateful if anyone could say:

a) Which of these statements do they agree with?
b) Why?
c) What is the difference between them?

Statement 1

Sexuality is a biological characteristic. Men like women and women like men and that can't be changed. Anyone who says they're gay is lying because homosexuality isn't real. It's a choice. We should make sure that gay people can't join the Scouts because they're only doing so to rape little boys.

Statement 2

Gender is a biological characteristic. Men are men and women are women and that can't be changed. Anyone who says they're transgender is lying because being transgender isn't real. It's a choice. We should make sure that transgender people can't use the women's toilets because they're only doing so to rape women.

Yes! Bat is right.

Why are you so bothered about these and not the 99.9% of other rapes?

I am.

Tell us though, why are you NOT concerned that there might be early warnings in the pattern of sex crime committed by females?

Why, when I search this forum (a feminist forum, mind) is rape only mentioned in the context of trans women? And mentioned dozens and dozens of times a day?

Because this is the sex and gender board that some posters petitioned to get hived off from the other feminist board?? Not sure what you are not understanding here.

I know it's not nice to be confronted with the fact of your prejudice.

No... I consider this post has been an attack because you have not seemed to understand that these attacks are why you were deleted.

I also think that there's a stance of "I'm a woman, a a member of historically oppressed group of people and so I could never oppress anyone myself". Which is just not how it works.

Saying no to statistics of males being included in the female sex statistics is not any woman oppressing anyone. Saying no males in female prisons is not any woman oppressing a male.

You have resorted to hyperbole.

So, yeah, that's my explanation of why I think you're prejudiced.

I think I have established that you actually personally attacked me instead of attacking my opinion that your theory about the numbers of female rapists being convicted was very flimsy. And particularly when I pointed out that the last period's increase of 19 individual defendants was unlikely to be explained by 'fat fingers'.

Hoarding; It is just another of the lies told to silence us

Yes. As a poster has revealed previously, and I agree with this.

My point is that prejudice doesn't disappear simply because it becomes socially unacceptable. It mutates into more acceptable forms.

Socially acceptable forms misogyny has now mutated into stating that women are the oppressors of males, or people who declare the gender identity of the opposite sex. If you question it, or don't share this new belief, then the new socially acceptable misogynistic backlash is to taint you as transphobic, prejudiced and privileged compared to males. A pit of invective can be unleashed on women in this way. Maybe even a criminal offence!

@BatmansBat

I have never heard about a systematic error which always occur in one direction. If this is the case, the people responsible needs to be replaced.

No-one is suggesting it’s a systematic error in one direction, if it’s an error it’s likely to be purely random.

If I was recording the sex of 100 women and 10,000 men and made an error 1% of the time, the recorded data would show 200 women and 9901 men. The data for men would be out by 1% but women out by 100%.

I also find the use of the slur robin mentioned upthread repulsive and abhorrent. I have never, ever used this word and never would.

I am very happy to stand for trans people's rights to protection and happiness and self determination. They deserve all of that just like all of us do.

You're so bloody wrong about women and what we want, robin. Maybe you should try listening, sometime. You might learn something.