More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

Oh thank you Catabogus.

I would volunteer to do that job, I'd take a week off and do it quite happily, and I bet I'm not the only one who would. Admittedly you can't have random volunteers wandering around CPS case files, but as a long term public sector worker, if there's one thing the pandemic has taught us it's 'where there's a will there's a way'.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffendingvictimisationandthepaththroughthecriminaljusticesystem/latest

Mind you, that was CSEW data.

This linked document has the actual offense codes: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/977203/count-sexual-apr-2021.pdf

It is quite possible that my recollection was based on the CSEW data rather than the CPS data. I'm not seeing hints of the same conflation in the CPS data.

Have you seen the response? The CPS can’t fulfil Prof Sullivan’s request for information on how many of the 436 were natal women charged with being an accessory to rape, versus how many were “bodies with penises” because they don’t have that information. They’d have to go back through all the case files (too time consuming, too expensive).

So we have no actual data. The CPS is not keeping any statistics on which of these crimes are committed by women and which by bodies with penises. I find this horrifying.

Yes of course women commit crimes.

With rape a penis is required.

Any women being prosecuted is rare. And would always involve a male or more than one male who carried out the actual rape.

IF loads more female women are being prosecuted for rape due to their role in assisting a penis person.

Then I have no doubt it would be big news. Because women doing crimes that are almost always committed by men get disproportionate attention by the media.

(With a great effect on the public of the idea it's more common than it is, while the men rarely get in the main news just for rape).

That's the one. Table one.

Would be good to find the data before that.

Crime survey is nothing to do with this.

This data is rape prosecution data.

I'd also agree that there needs to be huge care with these statistics; after all, these numbers are over several years. I also recall the furore over a hideous violent crime earlier this year which was committed by a woman, and a frequent indecent exposer in South London who i think is also female. Sometimes these are offences by women.

I have googled amateurishly to try and find statistics on female sexual offenders before and to the inexpert eye it is incredibly difficult information to find. That may be because i believe eg there are 128 women in prison for sexual offences (as opposed to 13500 men) and so it might be difficult to maintain any kind of privacy in the data.

Note though that the data if headed correctly and no reason to think not.

Says rape prosecution. Not crime survey and only rape.

The crime survey is not about prosecutions it's collecting data from a sample of the public. To try and get a wider picture of what's going on. As hardly any report etc.

[quote deadleaves]@Datun thanks for that you tube link - I've just posted it to my facebook.

Are there links to the rest of the talks at the Scottish Parliament rally?[/quote]
I'm sure there are, but I'm afraid I don't have them. You might find them on the For women Scotland Twitter.

I can't find rape stats only.

I might have a look later if I get laptop out. Look into source data. Need the police/ CPS stats not the ones from the survey.

I'm not confident with stats so those who are please put me right!

On the link it says "Yet, between 2012 and 2018, this data shows that the proportion of rape defendants classified as women varied between 1.2 per cent and 1.8 per cent. During this seven-year period, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape were recorded as women."

If actual females are continuing to be charged at a comparable rate to before, that would still point to more than 1% of those charged being TW, on average. (This is an assumption of course, but a reasonable one based on previous stats)

But TW are not 1% of adult males are they? I thought the figure was below that. If so, would that suggest that TW appear to over-represented in the rape charge stats? (maybe comparable to the way sex offenders are over-represented in the TW prisoner population?)

Also.

If there was a genuine increase in women being involved in rape. Such a big increase.

Then surely it would be s cause of concern and also of big interest to press.

Why? Who? What's going on? Because it would be unprecedented and a large change in behaviour and a very concerning one.

Finally.

ONS always separated rape as one table in stats.

A PP has said they are now including assault by penetration. (Which has been a crime for ages and does have same max sentence).

If they have done that then it indicates to me. That after years of separate reporting. They have mixed another crime in with the only one we have that points to a certain sex of the criminal. I can only think if one reason they would do that.. And if that is the reason then this problem is even bigger than we realised.. Because it means actively looking to obfuscate sex of criminal in the only place we can even start to ascertain it.

Yes female women can be done for rape. If they are directly involved.

It is very rare. I can remember one case. It was headline news because the papers get very interested when women do things like that.. Because it's so unusual.

A male would need to be there as well to carry out the rape. So even if it's one woman one man in all those cases that's still loads of women with penises.. Women in these stats used to be incredibly low for this reason.

Signed. Despite being a MN regular I had missed this completely.

@Datun thanks for that you tube link - I've just posted it to my facebook.

Are there links to the rest of the talks at the Scottish Parliament rally?

Yes Baron I believe you are right. These are not our crimes. Depressingly, I am not actually shocked about this.

Is it not the case that the only charge that can be made against (biological) women is one of being an accessory to rape?

And that these data refer specifically to rape?

I noted the figure for 2018 is higher than for any previous years. I would very much like to see the data for 2019 and 2020.

But, as under the law in England and Wales, rape is a crime committed with a penis….. so these (alleged) rapists are “bodies with penises” being recorded as women in crime stats. So transwomen, right?

You can't necessarily conclude that purely from the letter of the law.

For whatever reason, in the 2000s (I think) there was a drive to make the law sex-neutral here. But it appears they decided it was easier to have that effect by changing sentencing guidelines than the law itself.

So the guidelines say that for all practical purposes any form of "sexual assault by penetration" is sentenced the same as rape ("sexual assault by penis"), and the two are grouped together in the stats, despite "rape" still being a different offense.

If you look at the small print for the "rape" stats, you'll probably see that it encompasses offense codes 14 ("rape") and 21D ("sexual assault - penetration"). (Not sure of the code numbers - that's just an illustrative example. I've looked at this in the past, so recall how it worked).

HOWEVER, yes, given male/female offending behaviour it seems likely to me that a large number of those recorded for rape/penetration will be transwomen, most of the rest will be female accomplices, and there will be very few female perpetrators. But I don't know that we can see the data to be certain.

Please can people sign the petition on this thread and help keep the thread bumped so that more people will see it and signed. Also if you possibly can please share it across social media to get more signatures.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/4299869-Please-sign-this-petition-to-have-crimes-by-men-recorded-as-mens-crimes

Does anyone know the percentage increase year on year?