More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

You really think the CPS record gender accurately in every instance?

Unfortunately we know they're not recording sex accurately.
In the case of rape, they should be able to record that accurately 100% of the time. That's the big problem here.

If there were data entry mistakes in recording the 'gender' of rapists on a significantly large scale as the PP suggests, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that it would be systematically in the direction of F rather than M being entered.

Its just been explained on another thread that suspects are DNA tested on arrest. So the system knows the sex of every single person who has been arrested.
www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/giving-fingerprints-photographs-and-samples

Oh come on, @InspiralCoalescenceRingdown. This cannot possibly be what it appears to be, because what it appears to be is unconscionable.

But, that's irrelevant because this is almost unquestionably a data error issue. You really think the CPS record gender accurately in every instance? Or the offence correctly in every case? These 436 cases represent 3% of rape prosecutions or 60-odd cases a year out of 1.5k. This is some admin fat-fingering the gender field or the offence field. And its almost impossible to fix without reviewing all the original data.

Have you got any evidence for this, or is it something you just made up?

admin fat-fingering the gender field

This is a first though… never come across this as an excuse for the increase in numbers.

Or you know… it could be that males who identify as women have been included in the crime stats.

Not just in the UK either. It was very noticeable in Norway when they started including males in the female numbers as well.

But yeah… fat finger and all.

But then I guess some people are just really really desperate to find a stick to beat someone with.

Look in the mirror, @robinr66

Ozanj

Then clarity in numbers are vital. And research can be properly directed to understand why.

It wouldn’t surprise me since porn would have a influence on women and girls too.

It is the integrity of the sex categorised data that needs to be preserved just for this purpose.

If you want to see the rapes that women commit you need to look up sexual assault by penetration or anything else. There are a lot of them but they rarely get to the prosecution stage unless they were particularly violent or involved multiple victims. I have friends who work in prisons and according to them women do get away with this. One friend works with underaged victims of lesbian assaults and said the numbers of attacks seem to be rising.

Absolutely helleofabore

Its tiresome

And a bit worrying that some people can only manage to be concerned about one thing at a time

Prof Alice Sullivan is the woman to work all this out after her work on the census. She has given us the figures now they need to be unpacked and explained. When spikes or anomalies appear in data, statisticians and other researchers take a long hard look

Aaww! We have the scale argument right here on the thread discussing stats about female crime!!!

What does it matter if female sex offences have gone up x00%. It must be clerical error or sumthink.

Why should women care that their sexual category seems to be having a crime spree and that future safeguarding principals should be reconsidered and tweaked to reflect this change in female crime?

Your intention here is clear. Minimise, minimise, minimise.

It doesn’t happen.
If it did it only happened once.
Oh.. it happened 5 times?… look over there a squirrel! Pay attention to the squirrel.
Oh it is a grey squirrel and there was only a few of them escaped at one time and no one noticed the affect on the red squirrel? Ummmm.. look up there is a giant bat coming….

@robinr66, you may be right that data input errors account for many of the rape convictions attributed to female offenders, but why didn't that happen in previous years at the same rate? Are these data input errors consistent across all crimes? Why has nobody picked up on this and put it straight? Decades ago any instance of a rape being attributed to a female would have caused raised eyebrows. Now the waters have been well and truly muddied and nobody bothers to check and if necessary correct stats.

Surely there are some academics in the UK researching into crime statistics? They must be approved by the CPS/Ministry of Justice/courts/police to have access to the full records, so could check these cases.

Also, what about the UK Statistics Authority? This oversees the ONS and is responsible for ensuring UK government statistics are accurate. Do they look at crime statistics?

If it turned out that there are dozens of cases a year where a male offender is recorded by self-defined gender identity rather than sex, there are two possible reasons for that. One is that the offender does identify as a transwoman. The other is that the offender sees a chance to get into a women's prison but even if that isn't successful it's an unmissable opportunity to game the system. Most things an offender says which are manifest nonsense can be challenged by interviewing police officers. This one can't. Irresistible for a manipulative criminal.

You really think the CPS record gender accurately in every instance?
@robinr66 we don't care about gender, we want them to record sex accurately. Because sex matters.

Are women now not to get little more than a pyrrhic justice for women in general?

Remove rapists from general population of women and place them among incarcerated women who cannot escape.

Talking about sticks and always giving women the shitty end.

@robinr66 , Personally, I'd be more bothered by the fact that the CPS only prosecute 1 in 50 recorded rapes. You know, actual problems? With real impacts on women?

It certainly impacts women who are being locked up with male abusers and rapists. Or males incarcerated for other types of crimes. Does that have to happen and be ignored in order for the rape prosecutions to improve? Will incarcerated women then be locked up with the increased number of these male rapists?

Women absolutely can be convicted of rape, no penis required. Look at the laws around joint enterprise. Every person on this list could be a biological woman.

But, that's irrelevant because this is almost unquestionably a data error issue. You really think the CPS record gender accurately in every instance? Or the offence correctly in every case? These 436 cases represent 3% of rape prosecutions or 60-odd cases a year out of 1.5k. This is some admin fat-fingering the gender field or the offence field. And its almost impossible to fix without reviewing all the original data.

But, even without that, I can't understand the reaction here at all. "Disgusting", "not our crimes" and "I feel sick" and so on.

Why? What exactly did you imagine was happening here? What do you feel sick about? A secret transgender agenda to manipulate crime stats to do....what, exactly?

Personally, I'd be more bothered by the fact that the CPS only prosecute 1 in 50 recorded rapes. You know, actual problems? With real impacts on women?

But then I guess some people are just really really desperate to find a stick to beat someone with.

Perhaps Sex Matters as an organisation could get clarification on what the data means? If they could write a template letter I would write.
Statistics are so important. If it is true that 436 'women' have been convicted of rape but were actually male this is awful and should be a huge red flag. How long would it take to review those 436 cases. Some would be very clear, if it was a female assisting a male but those 436 cases need scrutiny.

I mentioned this to DS this evening (part of a discussion about crime). He was not impressed.

Sorry for multiple essays! A lot to say.

Also.

I've seen on twitter threads saying these stats are deliberately / or out of stupidity being framed wrongly.

The arguments I've seen are:

Only ~5000 people people in England/ Wales have GRC. And 436 of them have been prosecuted for rape?! Ludicrous claim.
(This is nothing to do with GRC. Not sure why they're saying that. Out of ignorance or on purpose).

• Females can be done for rape too. Obviously person who released this figure doesn't know that! Hopeless.

• That the data is rape + assault by penetration.

I think that insistence that the rape stats IE just rape should not be assumed to point to xyz. And that no conclusions however caveated should be drawn at all. Even by random individuals on the internet. Is a bit of an attempt to stop the conversation.

With stats and analysis, they are often not able to go to the nth degree. Often there are extrapolations that need to be made. With an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the particular data set, any changes in the metrics etc, a knowledge of the full definitions in use, and knowledge of any things that are known to account for past unusual figures. Then reviewing numbers and relating to real life is standard.

Example-

After Jimmy saville there was a large increase in reports of child sexual abuse, especially historical (and can mean not long ago).

The police always pointed out this did not indicate an increase in children being sexually abused now or recently. It meant that people were reporting more.

Or census stats being extrapolated in order to plan eg resources needed for maternity care in the next 10 years.

So I'm not getting this complaint really.

The CPS data was linked earlier on the thread. An Excel with the full info.

Crime survey does mix together rape and assault by penetration in the stats.

I feel like they didn't used to BUT I could well be wrong there. I don't know if in the survey they ask about rape and assault by penetration in the questions ie they are mixed from the start. Or if separate and merged in the analysis.

The CPS data linked earlier is clear that their data for rape is rape IE not with anything else.

I would doubt it.

Privacy, data protection, I mean I'm sure they would say no.

I also wonder if there is even a central database. Big orgs esp public sector are a nightmare to get joined up. Historic systems, different things going on in different areas. I mean maybe they do maybe they don't.

And if the files can be seen then what will that do?

Police only record gender and it's self ID..I would imagine that this tracks through the system.

So it would need to be each file gone through for eg victim testimony to see what the rape involved.

And anyone outside the justice system looking at that will be a hard no and that's a good thing. Rape victims are anon for a start. Incredibly sensitive testimony.

So sorry I don't think that's a a starter.

I would also suspect the CPS stats are compiled from reports from various areas or branches of whatever as per the police.

I mean all this is guesswork and happy to be wrong but that's my take from how things usually work.