More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

Or do you want to retain the segregation and allow men to choose freely which space they use, despite the obvious inequality between the groups?

Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if gender barriers were removed entirely but I think your mask has slipped a little here:

Or do you want to retain the segregation and allow men to choose freely which space they use, despite the obvious inequality between the groups?

Trans women are women. Allowing a trans woman to use a female toilet isn't allowing a man to use it - it's allowing a woman to use it.

The alternative is that you're permitted to define who other people are allowed to be, based on what you think is acceptable. You'd rightly tell me to sod off if I tried to tell a lesbian they're not really a lesbian because I don't believe in them, right?

The numbers of reported rapes has more than doubled over the same period. As a proportion of total recorded rapes, the percentage of cases falling into this category has dropped, not increased. They're less likely, not more.

We’re not discussing reported rapes, we’re discussing rape convictions. Does your theory still hold if you compare like with like?

And what *alfonso’ said

I don't understand what you've written here. Do you want to have another crack?

God its hard sometimes arabella 😀

When i get met at the pearly gates and St Peter shows me a list of the awful things ive said

I’ll be like ‘peter…mate….what about all the stuff I DIDNT say’

I feckon I’ll be straight in

Also worth noting, Bonsai, that a small group of posters insisted that posts discussing this topic were corralled into this board and separated from the other feminist 'chat'.

Which is why you will find that blow me down, all the posts related to 'gender' are on teh gender board. Amazing.

Why have figures for this type of crime suddenly increased?

It would be an astonishing coincidence if the number of fat fingers increased at much the same time as the police stopped recording sex and started asking perpetrators for their gender identity, but I’m sure you have an explanation that makes perhaps sense.

The numbers of reported rapes has more than doubled over the same period. As a proportion of total recorded rapes, the percentage of cases falling into this category has dropped, not increased. They're less likely, not more.

Why, when I search this forum (a feminist forum, mind) is rapeonlymentioned in the context of trans women? And mentioned dozens and dozens of times a day?

I quick search proves this claim is not true robin

I think you're a transphobe for the same reason that I think people in the 60s were racist when they expressed concerns that the end of segregation would lead to a rise in sexual offences against women.

So you want to end segregation of males and females altogether?

Or do you want to retain the segregation and allow men to choose freely which space they use, despite the obvious inequality between the groups?

Rufus.

I find myself able to discuss things in here without resorting to personal attacks and name calling

Fuck me it’s tempting at times 😀

Ok.

Scale - it is not that many (and fat fingers anyway)
Racist
Homophobic
sexism
and ignoring all the other rapes and crimes against women so are unable to multi task and be concerned on multiple fronts.

Any woman on this thread who states a concern as to why these numbers have increased and posits that one, amongst a number, reason may be due to males being included in the statistics (as Priti Patel believes as well) is all the above according to one poster.

Did I miss anything?

oh... yes... not nice and ignorant to the history of the oppression of women.

I mean, yes. That is literally what I'm saying. Clearly I'm keen to continue this discussion but I can't because the mods have told me I'll be banned if I do.

I actually have done so anyway so expect my posts to disappear shortly...

Surely you can address the points made with some kind of logical argument? It can’t be that you’ve been told not to post anything more on this topic, as you’ve continued to post on the thread.

Why have figures for this type of crime suddenly increased?

It would be an astonishing coincidence if the number of fat fingers increased at much the same time as the police stopped recording sex and started asking perpetrators for their gender identity, but I’m sure you have an explanation that makes perhaps sense.

And for good measure, even if it is “fat fingers” why would it be problematic to start recording both sex and gender identity? Surely if people want to be considered to be the opposite sex, they’d want to demonstrate that when it comes to crime statistics, that they behave more like the sex they want to be seen as than the sex they are?

I actually reported a few posts that appeared to meet the criteria for removal. Helpfully, the mods have contacted me each time to say why they aren't removing them and I've had follow up discussions.

In one instance, I had a post removed that called someone prejudiced - the reason given is that this was a "personal attack". So I reported a post that called me prejudiced and asked if they would remove that. They told me that was "acceptable" and wasn't a personal attack. Despite using exactly the same words that I did, it was treated differently.

Is this a cunning new line of argument: "look, I can't continue the debate with my diamond-edged logic and granite statistics because Mumsnet says I can't. So you'll just have to take my word that I've won the argument."

I know I called you a transphobe. I'd love to expand on why I said and why it is critically important to say so - but I can't, because it will lead to my account being suspended.

I've just had a discussion with a mod they told me it's acceptable for others to call me prejudiced but I'm not allowed to say that about others. Not even kidding - you're allowed to tell me I'm prejudiced and your comments doing so will not be removed. But I'm not allowed to say the same to you. Any comment that does so will be removed and I'll be banned.

So, what can I say? Nothing at all, which I presume is their ntent.

Actually, sod it! [Mods - this is not a personal attack but an explanation of why I said I thought this poster was a transphobe and prejudiced. I'm trying to explain what I meant, not denigrate anyone].

I think you're a transphobe for the same reason that I think people in the 60s were racist when they expressed concerns that the end of segregation would lead to a rise in sexual offences against women. These were the same people lynching black men 30 years earlier for talking to a white woman. Obviously, times had changed and it wasn't politically acceptable to claim that black people weren't human and the races should be kept separate. But they had to find some way of opposing desegregation. So they came up with an alternative spin - it's nothing to do with skin colour and everything to do with "protecting woman".

It was exactly the same with gay people in the military. It was no longer acceptable to be homophobic and claim it was a mental defect so the argument shifted to "unit cohesion".

Same with women in the military - it's not acceptable any more to say that women are inferior to men. So you make the argument that it's about "strength and personal safety".

My point is that prejudice doesn't disappear simply because it becomes socially unacceptable. It mutates into more acceptable forms.

In your case, you know full well you can't be all "i hate the wierdo trannies!!" because it's not 1994 and you understand that this is unacceptable.

So you frame your prejudice another way. You've got no problems with trans women, no siree. It's entirely to do with the "safety of women." Because that is acceptable.

But, you might say, I genuinely am only concerned with the safety of women!

To which the response would be then why this issue? Why is the issue so important to you?

Even if you're 100% correct and all trans women are secretly men looking to get unrestricted access to women's prisons, it's a miniscule issue compared with other problems facing women. Even if you're correct that every single one of these 436 cases is as you say, there were 400,000 reported rapes in the same period. So these cases would represent 0.1% of rapes in this period. Why are you so bothered about these and not the 99.9% of other rapes? Why, when I search this forum (a feminist forum, mind) is rape only mentioned in the context of trans women? And mentioned dozens and dozens of times a day?

I know it's not nice to be confronted with the fact of your prejudice. We all rationally understand that prejudice is wrong and we want to think of ourselves as fair and reasonable people. But being unable to acknowledge and confront your own prejudice means you can never tackle it or. move beyond it.

I also think that there's a stance of "I'm a woman, a a member of historically oppressed group of people and so I could never oppress anyone myself". Which is just not how it works.

So, yeah, that's my explanation of why I think you're prejudiced.

It's tough to escape the conclusion that what is allowed to stay up vs not is not the result of a fairly and consistently applied content policy but rather is based on whether the underlying views themselves are acceptable

Rubbish

Many pro women posters have been banned from Mumsnet

They aren’t picking on you

They have stricter rules on this board for everyone

I think most posters here would be open to a detailed data discussion though. And factual points.

yes please.

I was clear. Your intention seemed to be to minimise the increase as a 'fat fingered' admin error.

[quote timeisnotaline]@Itsanewdah this absolutely happens regularly. It should bother trans people as I can’t be the only one who is skeptical about the timing of their sudden discovery they are trans mid conviction given the relative amenity of a women’s prison vs a men’s prison. If I were trans I’d suspect some of these men are not genuinely trans, just opportunistic men, and be pissed off they are doing genuinely trans people no favours at app by giving them a bad name.[/quote]
^^This. I don't believe that anyone here thinks that 'genuine' trans women are responsible for all these rapes.

The problem is that there is no definition of trans woman beyond someone saying they are a trans woman. Given that sex offenders are so hated in male prisons that they are usually placed in a separate wing for their own protection, I can't see why rapists wouldn't identify as trans women. There are no downsides.