Page 10 | More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

Cwenthryth · 2021-09-27T22:07:55+00:00

I just saw this on Twitter [[https://twitter.com/profalices/status/1442415750497509380?s=21]] *Between 2012 and 2018, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape in England and Wales were recorded as women.* [[https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/committees/current-and-previous-committees/session-6-citizen-participation-and-public-petitions-committee/correspondence/2021/pe1876_h-professor-alice-sullivan-submission-of-27-august-2021]] I’m shocked at this statistic. Yes, a small proportion of these may be women charged with rape by joint enterprise. Prof Sullivan posted on Twitter she has requested to separate out those cases. But, as under the law in England and Wales, rape is a crime committed with a penis….. so these (alleged) rapists are “bodies with penises” being recorded as women in crime stats. So transwomen, right? So what does this mean….436 (alleged) transwomen rapists in 6 years? That is more than one a week. In England & Wales. Have I misunderstood that? I’m really shocked.

AnyOldPrion · 27/10/2021 17:47

But, in this scenario, women aren't the opresssed - they're the oppressors. They're not the black people in this scenario, they're the whites. In this case, the power rests entirely with them. That's why the parallel works.

So you’re reframing the argument by claiming that women have more power than men?

How does that work exactly? Can you explain the sudden reversal?

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:46

Female supremacists! Whoop!

Waitwhat23 · 27/10/2021 17:45

The whole 'women have all the power' argument is straight from the Incel handbook - it's such nonsense as to be laughable.

AnyOldPrion · 27/10/2021 17:43

I know men are not women, because that’s straightforward logic. If that makes me prejudiced, then I suspect that more than 99% of human beings are equally prejudiced.

I also know that only those with weak arguments need to resort to name-calling and ad hominem attacks as well. I wonder what knowing that makes me?

Bonsaibreaker · 27/10/2021 17:43

Apologies, it was actually you (and a half a dozen other people now) who finally decided to break cover and admit their issue actually has nothing to do with statistics but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all.

Why are you lying?

We can read the thread no poster has said that at all.

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 17:42

@AnyOldPrion

Because of the parallel. Prejudice follows the same patterns. Always has. And it's useful to take someone's position on one controversial issue and extrapolate that to another that is much more black and white - tends to focus the mind when people realise that their arguments against transgender rights are exactly the same arguments that racists make against racial equality...

Racial inequality was reduced when segregation ended. The group with less power, black people, wanted segregation to end, because the system was put in place and maintained by those with more power.

Women are the group with less power when we are discussing sex segregation. Women do not generally want sex segregation to end. They argue that they are at a physical disadvantage to men (regardless of the claimed gender identity of those men).

So are you saying that women arguing for the retention of sex segregation are like white people arguing to retain racial segregation? Because it seems to me you are ignoring/reversing the relative power of the two groups in question.

And you may be arguing for an end to sex segregation, but most transactivists are arguing for men to be able to use women’s spaces at will.

The equivalent in terms of apartheid would be for white people to claim they were black and demand access to the spaces that black people used, despite the black people saying that caused them distress.

Can you explain the parallels please? The situations and arguments appear wholly different.

But, in this scenario, women aren't the opresssed - they're the oppressors. They're not the black people in this scenario, they're the whites. In this case, the power rests entirely with them. That's why the parallel works.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:42

Unicorns? Fuck me.

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 17:40

@robinr66

I mean, it's not really possible to explain why you think someone is prejudiced in a positive way that isn't personal. It's not an attack but its not a compliment either...

And yet... it was personal. And I would call that an attack. Not a snide aside, not a snarky retort. An attack.

You have persisted in calling me a transphobe.

Please tell me where you have been proportionately denigrated on this thread?

Zebradanio · 27/10/2021 17:40

Trans women are women

Well if this premise was true, then there would be a good reason for trans women to be segregated into women's spaces where segregation is necessary.. But it's not true. This argument is based on a faulty premise. Trans women are biological males. And sex segregated services are there to protect and safeguard those born as women. Those who have female bodies.

I support the rights of trans women to live their lives in safety and free from persecution. To wear what they want, call themselves what they want, dress however they want. But to say they are actually women and should be able to uses the spaces designated for biological women. Why? I don't get it. It sounds so illogical to me.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:39

@GingerPCatt

I've always wondered what happens to these people that will stop existing because someone doesnt "believe" in them. Do they vanish in a puff of smoke?

Dunno, Ginger, but I'm damned if I'm going to stop clapping to find out!

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 17:38

Apologies, it was actually you (and a half a dozen other people now) who finally decided to break cover and admit their issue actually has nothing to do with statistics but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all.

I call it a "belief" because that's what is - like a believing in unicorns, anyone who rejects scientific fact in favour of their own personal option isn't being rationale.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:38

@GarageFlower123

I thought the the legal definition of "rape" was penetration by penis...so females can't be guilty of rape. Of course, they can commit sexual assault - I'm not saying all women are angels, but these can't be female crimes...or am I wrong?

Garage, there is, as I understand it, the very small possibilty that women can be convicted for 'joint enterprise' in a rape case. I don't think this is something that happens often, I understand it is vanishingly rare. But perhaps someone else has data or a more thorough understanding.

Otherwise, then yes, I think these will be rapes by males, using a penis, can't really be otherwise.

GingerPCatt · 27/10/2021 17:36

I've always wondered what happens to these people that will stop existing because someone doesnt "believe" in them. Do they vanish in a puff of smoke?

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:36

In all seriousness, if you are unable to discuss the issues without resorting to making negatvie personal comments, does that not perhaps make you wonder why? Why is it you're unable to argue the topic and issues, but find yourself reaching for ways to comment on the people involved? Could it be that your argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny or debate?

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 17:36

@robinr66

My point is that s/he's revealed what she really thinks - that's transgender people don't exist, because s/he doesn't believe in them

I'm glad s/he's said that. It's much better to be open about your prejudice. I imagine that most people on here secretly think the same and probably get a bit tired of having to pretend otherwise.

Fortunately, the floodgates have opened now and we can all stop pretending that it's to do with statistics and everything to do with prejudice against transgender people. See how much easier things become when we can talk about the actual problem?

[See what I mean, mods? This is what I was trying to get at.]

This thread is about the fact that there is a distinct possibility that males have been included in the prosecuted rape stats for females.

Your refusal to accept that people have the right to discuss this has now become the issue.

You call someone prejudiced for pointing out that these are male statistics, if they are included in the figures. These are SEX based statistics. I am not sure why you are going to continue to double down here.

If you have evidence that transitioned males no longer commit crimes in the same style and the same rate as all males, please post it. Maybe we have missed these new statistics???

Otherwise, at the moment there is no evidence at all that transitioned males commit crimes at the same rate or the same type of crime as females.

You are getting very caught up in gender when we are discussing SEX.

I am quite sure that the mods are very well aware of all these arguments, they have to moderate them daily. Your posts are by no way the first of this style (except I have not seen 'fat fingers' as an excuse before) they have seen today, I am sure.

GarageFlower123 · 27/10/2021 17:35

I thought the the legal definition of "rape" was penetration by penis...so females can't be guilty of rape. Of course, they can commit sexual assault - I'm not saying all women are angels, but these can't be female crimes...or am I wrong?

AnyOldPrion · 27/10/2021 17:34

Because of the parallel. Prejudice follows the same patterns. Always has. And it's useful to take someone's position on one controversial issue and extrapolate that to another that is much more black and white - tends to focus the mind when people realise that their arguments against transgender rights are exactly the same arguments that racists make against racial equality...

Racial inequality was reduced when segregation ended. The group with less power, black people, wanted segregation to end, because the system was put in place and maintained by those with more power.

Women are the group with less power when we are discussing sex segregation. Women do not generally want sex segregation to end. They argue that they are at a physical disadvantage to men (regardless of the claimed gender identity of those men).

So are you saying that women arguing for the retention of sex segregation are like white people arguing to retain racial segregation? Because it seems to me you are ignoring/reversing the relative power of the two groups in question.

And you may be arguing for an end to sex segregation, but most transactivists are arguing for men to be able to use women’s spaces at will.

The equivalent in terms of apartheid would be for white people to claim they were black and demand access to the spaces that black people used, despite the black people saying that caused them distress.

Can you explain the parallels please? The situations and arguments appear wholly different.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:34

oh, robin. I'm sorry you're finding it so hard that you're not allowed to make negative personal comments. Is it very difficult? Can you really not have a discussion without doing so?

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 17:31

I mean, it's not really possible to explain why you think someone is prejudiced in a positive way that isn't personal. It's not an attack but its not a compliment either...

Bonsaibreaker · 27/10/2021 17:31

transgender people don't exist, because s/he doesn't believe in them

Please point out the post where they say transpeople don't exist.

merrymouse · 27/10/2021 17:30

My point is that s/he's revealed what she really thinks - that's transgender people don't exist, because s/he doesn't believe in them

That is the equivalent of saying atheists don’t believe the Pope exists.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:29

transgender people don't exist, because s/he doesn't believe in them

Quick, everyone, clap if you believe!

jellyfrizz · 27/10/2021 17:28

@robinr66

I can never understand why the racist argument is brought into this.

Because of the parallel. Prejudice follows the same patterns. Always has. And it's useful to take someone's position on one controversial issue and extrapolate that to another that is much more black and white - tends to focus the mind when people realise that their arguments against transgender rights are exactly the same arguments that racists make against racial equality...

Sometimes segregation IS important, to right historic inequalities or protect the vulnerable for instance.

Interesting point. I'm struggling to think of a legit example where that could be justified as a long term policy position to maintain segregation though.

A parallel analogy would need to be when the segregation is of benefit to the more vulnerable class. Women are not the whites in a racial analogy. A parallel analogy would be closer to white people identifying as black in order to claim a scholarship only open to people of colour.

The point you're making here is about pretence though. You're talking about white people pretending to be black to get a benefit (although Chris Rock does an excellent routine on why this doesn't happen).

So are you saying that transgender women are pretending to be women?

Legit examples for long term policy of segregation:

segregating by age to protect children and sometimes the elderly in many spheres of life (healthcare, education, sports....)
segregating by ability to allow differently abled people space and facilities to deal with toileting.
sports are segregated by age, ability, and often weight in order for people to compete safely and fairly.

Off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many more.

RE. your point about pretence, the segregation is by sex, not gender so are you saying that transgender women are female?

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:28

Who said that?!

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 17:27

My point is that s/he's revealed what she really thinks - that's transgender people don't exist, because s/he doesn't believe in them

I'm glad s/he's said that. It's much better to be open about your prejudice. I imagine that most people on here secretly think the same and probably get a bit tired of having to pretend otherwise.

Fortunately, the floodgates have opened now and we can all stop pretending that it's to do with statistics and everything to do with prejudice against transgender people. See how much easier things become when we can talk about the actual problem?

[See what I mean, mods? This is what I was trying to get at.]