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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sorry if this has been done before, but gender identity and race identity

32 replies

BabyOctopus · 27/09/2021 19:04

Hi all,

I am discussing the GC and TRA debate with my lovely best friend. I fall very much on the GC side, while she is very much of the view that transwomen should be treated as a category under the umbrella of ‘woman’.

The debate has stayed friendly and respectful, and neither of us have at any point got angry with each other Smile

The one thing I am trying to get my head around is the race vs gender identity question and why we might reject one and accept the other.

I am musing over this article as a topic for our next debate. It’s written by an assistant professor in the philosophy department at Yale University who identifies as non-binary, and a PhD candidate in Philosophy at Rutgers University.

The argument hinges on the concept of ‘accumulated generational inequality’ as a basis for justifying why a white person shouldn't be able to identify as black, but a man should be able to identify as a woman.

The authors claim that since they believe women as a sex class don’t experience this accumulated generational inequality (due to multi-gender households), it’s okay for a male bodied person to identify as a woman, despite the sexism they experience.

It also describes J K Rowling as an ‘anti-trans activist’ and contains what I think is a bit of pseudo-science thrown into the mix.

They also state:
“In cases where revising a classification would have a negative sociopolitical impact that outweighs the good of respecting how an individual identifies, we think that the classification should not be revised. And we think that revising the rules of race classification to accommodate transracial identification into Blackness is a case like this.”

But while they talk about the negative consequences of a person identifying as black, they make no acknowledgement of any potential negative impact of expanding the classification of ‘woman’.

Nevertheless, I’m not a philosopher (albeit I am universality educated to MA level in a similar subject), so it’s quite possible I’m missing something.

I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on its merits and weaknesses, as this will help aid the discussion!

bostonreview.net/race-philosophy-religion-gender-sexuality/robin-dembroff-dee-payton-why-we-shouldnt-compare

Thanks all!

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/09/2021 20:46

See: Oli London, who is non-binary AND trans-Korean. I think OL is actually doing this as performance art, but the people who accept the NB identity also argue against the validity of OL's Korean identity.

Franca123 · 27/09/2021 20:37

Personally I think trans race is the next battle these loons will wage. There is zero difference. In fact, race as a category has far less basis in reality than sex. It is the obvious next target to be queered.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/09/2021 20:32

Between meetings but Jane Clare Jones on Dembroff:

janeclarejones.com/2021/05/02/sex-based-vs-gender-based-oppression-a-fisk-of-dembroff/

merrymouse · 27/09/2021 20:00

The argument hinges on the concept of ‘accumulated generational inequality’ as a basis for justifying why a white person shouldn't be able to identify as black, but a man should be able to identify as a woman.

‘accumulated generational inequality’ is a specific kind of inequality, but there are plenty of other drivers of inequality. It’s glaringly obvious that women have been excluded from equal participation in society because of their reproductive role and that they face direct and indirect discrimination because of their sex. Women will continue to need rights that men don’t because they are physically different.

On the other hand the differences between races are a social construct, and the accumulated generational inequality referred to is hundreds of years old, but that is comparatively recent. In a few hundred more years they may just be a note in a history book. The racial inequality referred to is also geographically specific.
However none of that means that racial inequality in America doesn’t exist.

The argument seems to be that this kind of inequality is less important than that kind of inequality, so it’s fine to treat those people as a set of stereotypes. People have been saying that about women for a very long time.

gncq · 27/09/2021 19:46

Not to mention aborted and prevented from ever having a life by "multi gender households".

Forced to cover their hair/face in "multi gender households".

The whole premise of the author reeks of gender ideology fantasy.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/09/2021 19:33

It was briefly touched on here. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4215681-richard-dawkins-request-for-discussion-on-identity?msgid=106373969#106373969

I think it's a huge attempt to arse cover.

Would racism not be a problem if it was happening to the black adopted child of a white family then?

Girls have been oppressed throughout history and across the world by their fathers. They have not benefited from being in a "multi-gender household". Women have been systematically excluded from inheritance!

Gncq · 27/09/2021 19:20

I wouldn't muse over anything written by an extreme gender ideologist. I'd actively avoid it in fact.
I'm sure intelligent people have written about Rachel Dolezal out there.