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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer on Marr now

386 replies

Jaysmith71 · 26/09/2021 09:47

We must have a tolerent debate.... Trans community are the most marginalised community of all

....and 'Only women have a cervix' is, "Something that should not be said."

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FlyingOink · 26/09/2021 16:37

Cwenthryth that's a much better answer!

Cwenthryth · 26/09/2021 16:25

The thing is, I do not need nor expect Keir Starmer, as leader of the opposition, to be the ultimate arbiter on whether “only women have a cervix” is transphobic or not. He wants a respectful debate? This is the debate, Keir, and if you want the debate to happen, it is highly inappropriate for you to support one side of it, don’t you think?

How hard would it have been to answer something like: “Andrew, it is not for me to decide whether that statement constitutes transphobia or not, the issue here is that many people define women and men by biological sex, and do not consider that any sense of identity can change a person’s sex, no matter how distressing that may sadly be for an individual; other people, however, believe that whether a person is a woman or a man (or, indeed, a non-binary person) is a matter of personal gender identity entirely separate from their physical body or natal biology. That is the debate Andrew, the plurality of views within our society on gender and sex. It would not be right for me, as leader of the Labour Party, to be judging the acceptability of these views when expressed respectfully in debate; my job should be to find a way forward that enables us as a party to come together from all angles of this debate, to both support transgender people in fighting any discrimination and harrassment that they face; whilst at the same time, importantly, exploring how we can properly, effectively safeguard women and girls from the epidemic of male violence we are experiencing in this country at the present time, and whether, and how, certain specific single sex spaces may be a justified part of that.”

I mean politicians don’t answer the question all the bloody time. Why couldn’t he not answer the question in a way which shows he actually understands the fucking issue at least.

#cwen4leader Grin

bellinisurge · 26/09/2021 16:03

Handing it to the feckin Tories on a plate.
Angela Raynor as good as described anyone who broke their heart and voted Tory in the last election as "scum". Starmer's idea of a reasonable debate is to shut down women and let trans extremists talk to themselves.

Floisme · 26/09/2021 16:01

I think the rest of your post was interesting ChristinaXYZ. I think it would be worth reposting it with the opening paragraph(s?) cut out. Spoiling my vote feels like as far as I could go at the moment but I absolutely take your point.

I'm definitely watching the SDP but the chances are they wouldn't put up a candidate here anyway.

OvaHere · 26/09/2021 15:49

*something -not to something.

Apparently it's easy to mistype too Grin

OvaHere · 26/09/2021 15:48

@ChristinaXYZ

Apologies to *@Jaysmith71* *@OvaHere* - I have reading problems and mis read the opening para. I have asked MNHQ to delete my post.
No problem. It's easy to misread to something.
PickAChew · 26/09/2021 15:45

The SDP have some interesting policies but I would like them to clarify their ideas about "traditional family life" before I could ever get on board with them. For example, they wa t to build more social housing (great!) and allocate it to married families(hmmm).

They don't tend to run here, anyhow.

SpindleWorld · 26/09/2021 15:41

Don't worry about it, @ChristinaXYZ, I've had some spectacular comprehension accidents on MN. You've done the right thing - a polite 'oops' and move on.

ChristinaXYZ · 26/09/2021 15:37

The SDP think only women have a cervix

twitter.com/SDPhq/status/1442125257486180366

and so does Sajid Javid

twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1442082718402154498

ChristinaXYZ · 26/09/2021 15:36

Apologies to @Jaysmith71 @OvaHere - I have reading problems and mis read the opening para. I have asked MNHQ to delete my post.

CreepingDeath · 26/09/2021 15:33

I can't believe Starmer used to be a lawyer, he seems terrified of confrontation.
And Grin to whoever said it was like listening to undercooked pudding.

As Charlie's post indicates, this has been a Labour stance for some time, and is not going away. They are determined to push through Self ID.

It makes you wonder who is funding them? The push for this must have come from somewhere.

CreepingDeath · 26/09/2021 15:31

@AnyOldPrion

Can someone please explain to me how the ‘Trans community are the most marginalised community of all.’

From where I stand this ‘community’ has the ear of and funding from governments, political parties, major institutions, schools, big businesses, charities, the police, healthcare, big tech - social media. Laws are in the process and have been changed, mainly at the detriment of other groups. That doesn’t exactly sound marginalised to me.

Oddly enough, I could see that these two apparently opposing statements might both contain some truth. The extremist activists who are pushing for men to have women’s rights, and access to all women’s spaces, on demand, without gatekeeping, do indeed appear to have a great deal of éminence grise type power. They are using it to push for the rights they want, which may not remotely be rights that will benefit the majority of people who are transitioning.

And indeed, because they are turning “trans rights” into a massively contentious issue, which tramples over the rights of others, they are indeed building resentment against the wider trans community.

It’s arguable that a large percentage of the reported rise in “hate incidents” are both part and parcel of, and being created by, their push for “rights” that the vast majority of the population can see are not rights at all. Ironically, they are likely a driver of the marginalisation of transitioning people.

This may be true, and I have a certain amount of sympathy for ordinary trans people caught in the middle of this. But the fact remains that women don't have the luxury of sitting back and waiting to see what the end game here is. Regardless of the motivations, the impact on our hard ones spaces and places in society is the same.

It's up to trans people to form an alternative group to decry what is happening in their name if they don't agree with it.

NoWordForFluffy · 26/09/2021 15:30

@Floisme

I can't see where that post says anything about 'other half' - of either sex.
Me neither. It says 'hand', as in that thing on the end of your arm! No mention of husband or partner.
Floisme · 26/09/2021 15:27

I can't see where that post says anything about 'other half' - of either sex.

ChristinaXYZ · 26/09/2021 15:22

@OvaHere

Who in their right mind votes the way her husband tells her. And jokes about DV on top

I think you misread that post. They didn't mention a husband.

Apologies, other half tells him/her to vote. I had assumed that most DV was committed by men and therefore this other half was male. I stand corrected. Unless you're quibbling about marital status. Either way one is meant to assume the whole scenario is made up so the 'facts' you're pointing out are hardly the point.
tiddlysquat · 26/09/2021 15:18

Just watched this too. I'm more mad that I've been for ages.

We need a new political party

OvaHere · 26/09/2021 15:12

Who in their right mind votes the way her husband tells her. And jokes about DV on top

I think you misread that post. They didn't mention a husband.

ChristinaXYZ · 26/09/2021 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LizzieSiddal · 26/09/2021 15:08

Marr’s questioning was frustrating and inadequate.
The point is that the language surrounding women and the actual word “woman” is being erased. Women are very angry about this. What are you going to do about it Stammer?!

littlbrowndog · 26/09/2021 15:07

But it seems like every a politician is asked about women. They always jump straight to the most marginalised ever trans people

Why can’t they talk about women

Khan did it davey did it rayner did

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 15:06

@AngeloMysterioso

As Sarah Ditum rightly pointed out on Twitter, he’s more tolerant of Angela Rayner calling people scum than of women talking about biology.
Yes he is

It was very jarring

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 26/09/2021 15:04

Bloody hell. I've been out all morning and afternoon so only just caught up on this.

That's that then. You can "respectful debate" on one hand and police women's language about their own biology as "shouldn't be said" on the other. He's not fired Rosie Duffield but that's neither here nor there now, because he's shown where he stands and it's not with women.

He, along with the Labour party, can fuck right off.

OvaHere · 26/09/2021 15:03

@Babdoc

Spotted a lovely comment under the article reporting this interview in the Herald: “Starmer’s father was a toolmaker. Keir is a perfect example of his father’s work!” I cannot disagree…Grin
Ouch Grin
TooWicked · 26/09/2021 15:03

twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1442082718402154498?s=21

Well at least Sajid Javid is clear.

Babdoc · 26/09/2021 14:43

Spotted a lovely comment under the article reporting this interview in the Herald:
“Starmer’s father was a toolmaker. Keir is a perfect example of his father’s work!”
I cannot disagree…Grin

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