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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

(Scottish) Teachers fear legal action over transgender pupil advice

38 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/09/2021 09:58

In the Herald

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19604640.teachers-fear-legal-action-transgender-pupil-advice/

Excerpts:

Leaders at the Scottish Secondary Teachers’ Association (SSTA) said their upcoming Congress would see members debate an emergency motion that claims ministers are seeking to make changes without establishing a clear legislative basis. It calls for the guidance to be withdrawn until such an “underpinning” is enacted.

The guidance states: “A transgender young person may not have told their family about their gender identity. Inadvertent disclosure could cause needless stress for the young person or could put them at risk and breach legal requirements. Therefore, it is best to not share information with parents or carers without considering and respecting the young person’s views and rights.”

SSTA concerns focus largely on what happens to details disclosed by a pupil and whether these can be passed on without their consent. Its leaders said there were deepening fears over the professional and legal risks for teachers who are recipients of such information.

The SSTA motion states: “In view of the recently published document ‘Supporting Transgender Pupils in Schools - Guidance for Scottish Schools’ (August 2021), this Congress is greatly concerned over safeguarding and other issues, including: the potential excluding of parents/carers from the process of children under 16 transitioning to another gender; implying that teachers may not pass on information that may be revealed to them by a child without the child’s consent; the potential for professional harm to staff involved in withholding information from parents/carers, including future legal action; that the identified ‘best practice’ has not been rigorously examined for its legal implications nor risk assessed for potential harm it may cause others in the school community, including those with protected characteristics.”

It concludes: “Congress believes it is unacceptable for the government to seek to make such consequential changes without legal underpinning. Congress therefore calls on the guidance to be withdrawn until appropriate legislation has been enacted which can then inform the guidance to be disseminated to schools.”

I have no idea how significant this is?

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ArabellaScott · 26/09/2021 20:23

Quite astonishing to me, after the fiasco of the Named Person scheme, that the Scotgov tries yet AGAIN to produce guidance that threatens to interfere in family life.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49757890

What do they expect families to say? 'Oh, it's not standard safeguarding practise, but right enough, Nicola knows best'?

Two chances.

ArabellaScott · 26/09/2021 20:12

@terryleather

SNP continues to ignore the people it proclaims to serve, though - still trying to push through shit legislation 'for our own good', no matter what all the experts tell them.

This is what Stephen Daisley called coercive progressivism, which I think hits the nail on the head - the bien pensant inflicting whatever they like on the lessers cause they know better.

They can get tae fuck.

Yes, that's about right.
ArabellaScott · 26/09/2021 20:02

@Acatcalledcharlie

I spoke to the HT at my DD's school. He was clearly very nervous and worried about saying the wrong thing. He did assure me however that this is just guidance and that the school has their own measures in place. He guaranteed me that my DD would not be sharing changing facilities or accommodation with a child of the opposite sex. He also said that I would be involved in all decisions around my child's wellbeing. I felt re-assured after that.

What has it come to though that I even have to ask these questions and that schools are being given this crazy guidance that they know to be just wrong!

Our school has so far said similar - this isn't statutory guidance, so they don't have to follow it. And that parents would be consulted on any changes.
MidsomerMurmurs · 26/09/2021 19:32

Excellent detailed post @CharlieParley. I’m pleased (but a little surprised) that the union has actually noticed and put out that statement.

MedusasButterDish · 26/09/2021 19:16

@CharlieParley

In other words teaching staff with transphobic views are now worried they won't be able to get away with expressing them anymore?

What is it with the moronic takes all the time? I mean this doesn't just misrepresent what the Scottish Secondary Teacher Association said, it vomits it back up in a wholly unrecognizable way that is just beyond stupid.

And I don't say that lightly.

Here's the situation:

We have laws Scottish schools must abide by. They include The Human Rights Act 1998, The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, The Equality Act 2010, Getting it Right for Every Child (GIRFEC), school building regulations, statutory guidance and a whole range of other regulations, safeguarding framewoks and education policies that schools must also adhere to.

What has happened here is that the Scottish Government has created guidance, which (if implemented as written), will see staff violate a range of the above.

What the Scottish Government has also done is passed the buck. They have made it unequivocally clear that all responsibility, including legal liabilities, for implementing the guidance rests with the schools doing it. At best, that means the head of each school, at worst each individual member of staff, from teaching assistants to learning support to teachers.

It doesn't matter what individual teachers or staff members believe about self-id and trans-inclusion in opposite-sex spaces and information sharing - they are bound by law to uphold the rights of all children in schools, to safeguard them all and to include all parents who have not officially been designated a concern for the wellbeing of their child in all decision making about them. (For those parents who have, slightly different rules apply, but as long as they have parental rights, they also must be included.)

And the official guidance from the Scottish Government gives advice that goes against much of the rules schools are bound by.

At long last the only specialist union for Scotland's high school teachers has twigged that this guidance is a danger to their members, because it leaves them wide open to legal challenges, and all without having the backing of their government.

It was obvious that this would happen. The last guidance, commissioned by the Scottish Government, paid for and endorsed, by them, was nonetheless not written and published by the Scottish Government but an outside advocacy group. So when that guidance was found not to be legal, the Scottish Government washed their hands off it.

The new guidance repeats much of the old guidance (how could it not, given who had input again). Although it avoids some of the most egregious breaches, it still gives advice that would lead to violating the rights of children and safeguarding rules. That's because no one writing this new guidance seems to have been willing to engage with campaigners seeking to uphold the rights of all children or the rights of female children or the rights of disabled children or the rights of children from faith groups.

But this guidance is coming from the government, so it cannot be simply ignored.

The union has one job here: protect its members from suffering the consequences of the mistakes made by the Scottish Government.

And someone at that union was brave enough to do this now, with an excellent statement that calls out the Scottish Government for its negligence.

The only responsible action a union could take. Teachers and families must not carry responsibility for the safeguarding problems foisted upon them.
Itsinthetreesitscoming · 25/09/2021 17:40

Yes - thanks Charlie for setting it out so clearly.

littlbrowndog · 25/09/2021 17:29

It does go to 😎😎

Great pos5 Charlie

Safeguarding flying out the window for some children

Scotland ditching safeguarding for a ideology

lazylinguist · 25/09/2021 17:12

In other words teaching staff with transphobic views are now worried they won't be able to get away with expressing them anymore?

Award for today's dimmest comment goes to...

gncq · 25/09/2021 16:58

A person with a vagina says "Teacher I identify as Tom now you need to use he/his/him pronouns, but don't tell my parents."

Teacher speaks to parents "I need to speak to you about_"
WHO now??
Use deadname - transphobic
Use newname - transphobic
Your daughter - transphobic
Your son - transphobic
Your "child" - which one most have siblings at same school
Your "child in year 8" - parents be like, "so Sarah?" You can't say yes or no or you're transphobic.

It's all just a total trap. It's bullshit.

2319inprogress · 25/09/2021 15:47

👆👏👏👏

Jaysmith71 · 25/09/2021 15:46

In other words teaching staff with transphobic views are now worried they won't be able to get away with expressing them anymore?

What is it about riding on the trans-train that makes you lose the ability to read, to listen, to comprehend plain English in any form???

CharlieParley · 25/09/2021 15:42

In other words teaching staff with transphobic views are now worried they won't be able to get away with expressing them anymore?

What is it with the moronic takes all the time? I mean this doesn't just misrepresent what the Scottish Secondary Teacher Association said, it vomits it back up in a wholly unrecognizable way that is just beyond stupid.

And I don't say that lightly.

Here's the situation:

We have laws Scottish schools must abide by. They include The Human Rights Act 1998, The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, The Equality Act 2010, Getting it Right for Every Child (GIRFEC), school building regulations, statutory guidance and a whole range of other regulations, safeguarding framewoks and education policies that schools must also adhere to.

What has happened here is that the Scottish Government has created guidance, which (if implemented as written), will see staff violate a range of the above.

What the Scottish Government has also done is passed the buck. They have made it unequivocally clear that all responsibility, including legal liabilities, for implementing the guidance rests with the schools doing it. At best, that means the head of each school, at worst each individual member of staff, from teaching assistants to learning support to teachers.

It doesn't matter what individual teachers or staff members believe about self-id and trans-inclusion in opposite-sex spaces and information sharing - they are bound by law to uphold the rights of all children in schools, to safeguard them all and to include all parents who have not officially been designated a concern for the wellbeing of their child in all decision making about them. (For those parents who have, slightly different rules apply, but as long as they have parental rights, they also must be included.)

And the official guidance from the Scottish Government gives advice that goes against much of the rules schools are bound by.

At long last the only specialist union for Scotland's high school teachers has twigged that this guidance is a danger to their members, because it leaves them wide open to legal challenges, and all without having the backing of their government.

It was obvious that this would happen. The last guidance, commissioned by the Scottish Government, paid for and endorsed, by them, was nonetheless not written and published by the Scottish Government but an outside advocacy group. So when that guidance was found not to be legal, the Scottish Government washed their hands off it.

The new guidance repeats much of the old guidance (how could it not, given who had input again). Although it avoids some of the most egregious breaches, it still gives advice that would lead to violating the rights of children and safeguarding rules. That's because no one writing this new guidance seems to have been willing to engage with campaigners seeking to uphold the rights of all children or the rights of female children or the rights of disabled children or the rights of children from faith groups.

But this guidance is coming from the government, so it cannot be simply ignored.

The union has one job here: protect its members from suffering the consequences of the mistakes made by the Scottish Government.

And someone at that union was brave enough to do this now, with an excellent statement that calls out the Scottish Government for its negligence.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/09/2021 15:13

Trans activists are frothing to keep safeguarding away from this group of children. Teachers regularly consider safeguarding issues when working with children who self harm, look for issues of social contagion when looking at children with eating disorders or who are being radicalised online. Yet with this group teachers are told to stay away. Only affirm. View their families as potentially hostile.

It can't be emphasised strongly enough that isolating children from their carers and leaving them in thrall to random adults are behaviours that predators use - every day .

NewMutiny · 25/09/2021 15:04

I mean it's not like safeguarding doesn't generally consider...um...safeguarding is it? You wouldn't say, 'well thanks for telling us your mum beat you with a belt last night Samantha, I'll just give her a call now and sort it out.' Good safeguarding practice assesses which parents are a risk to their child and which (the vast vast majority) aren't. It doesn't assume all/many/most parents are dangerous. Except for where trans is concerned. I wonder why that is?

Diptheria23 · 25/09/2021 14:54

Scotland is in the process of incorporating the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) into Scot's Law. This will mean that any public authority (including schools) could be subject to legal challenge if they breach CRC rights. Keeping important information from parents could well be considered a breach, as the role of parent's/guardians in children's lives is central to the CRC rights. Teachers are quite right to be worried. At least the Children's Commissioner seems to be recognising that there is an issue here.

NewMutiny · 25/09/2021 14:52

So a. Don't tell the people a child lives with that that child might be identifying as trans. And b. Identifying as trans has the biggest correlation with suicidality of anything ever.

Can someone explain that? I am struggling to see how it's evidence of logical thought but I am sure I just need education so I can 'do better'. Can someone educate me?

Jaysmith71 · 25/09/2021 14:51

Safeguarding. It's entirely about safeguarding, and teachers not keeping ANY secrets shared only with children, which is unprofessional and fucking creepy.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/09/2021 14:46

@MargaritaPie

In other words teaching staff with transphobic views are now worried they won't be able to get away with expressing them anymore?

Scotland's curriculum will be LGBT friendly and Scotland's political parties in charge (SNP+Green) are both LGBT friendly. A Scottish woman as we all know is currently awaiting trial for charges which include posting content online with homophobic+transphobic aggravators.

I'm sure we all have our own views but to me this would seem society is moving forward and more people are saying "no" to homophobia and transphobia?

It's not transphobic to safeguard children It's not transphobic to respect the law that says parental rights cannot be removed by anyone without the permission of the courts It's not transphobic to be aware and concerned of the impact of social contagion It's not transphobic in the face of all the evidence of how badly children removed from their parents care do in terms of academic and life chances, to ensure that no children are deliberately alienated from their families. It's not transphobic to insist that this very vulnerable group of children are included in all our well evidenced safeguarding structures.

None of this is transphobic - it's all basic child welfare and safeguarding practice currently being dismantled by some exceptionally dubious people.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/09/2021 14:37

In other words teaching staff with transphobic views are now worried they won't be able to get away with expressing them anymore?

That's not what it says at all Hmm

OP posts:
MargaritaPie · 25/09/2021 14:22

In other words teaching staff with transphobic views are now worried they won't be able to get away with expressing them anymore?

Scotland's curriculum will be LGBT friendly and Scotland's political parties in charge (SNP+Green) are both LGBT friendly. A Scottish woman as we all know is currently awaiting trial for charges which include posting content online with homophobic+transphobic aggravators.

I'm sure we all have our own views but to me this would seem society is moving forward and more people are saying "no" to homophobia and transphobia?

Tibtom · 25/09/2021 12:56

It is the idolising of 'lived experience' over all else: expertise, alternative opinion, critical thought, study, reflection...

PermanentTemporary · 25/09/2021 12:38

It's a consequence of employing specialists who have been labelled as good on a particular issue without really engaging properly as well.

So many organisations who are buried in work anyway are told 'you must have a policy on this' and then a 'specialist' pops up with a template policy and it gets tabled at a meeting and maybe not absolutely everybody at the meeting has actually read all the papers, and the only person who has is the one who always makes a fuss and the meeting will overrun if someone doesn't shut her up and everyone is knackered and the safeguarding lead has to leave at 845 because she needs to pick up her daughter and the SENCO is self-isolating that week...

It is a hard slow process to actually effect change and get people to agree or to thrash out objections and problems. And God knows change may well be needed in sll sorts of ways, homophobic bullying and sexism and sexual assault have hardly disappeared. But it takes really systemic discussion to tackle those things. Not a policy taped over a gaping hole.

terryleather · 25/09/2021 12:30

SNP continues to ignore the people it proclaims to serve, though - still trying to push through shit legislation 'for our own good', no matter what all the experts tell them.

This is what Stephen Daisley called coercive progressivism, which I think hits the nail on the head - the bien pensant inflicting whatever they like on the lessers cause they know better.

They can get tae fuck.

DisappearingGirl · 25/09/2021 12:18

I also really feel for teachers (and Brownie/Guide leaders) who are responsible for taking kids/teens on a residential trip. What are they supposed to do about a trans child/teen in terms of sleeping accommodation and washing facilities?

I'm not suggesting for a second that the trans child is particularly likely to be predatory - just there are good reasons for giving kids/teens single-sex accomodation.

Another example where the teacher/adult in charge could find themselves in trouble if things go wrong.

Acatcalledcharlie · 25/09/2021 12:05

I spoke to the HT at my DD's school. He was clearly very nervous and worried about saying the wrong thing. He did assure me however that this is just guidance and that the school has their own measures in place. He guaranteed me that my DD would not be sharing changing facilities or accommodation with a child of the opposite sex. He also said that I would be involved in all decisions around my child's wellbeing. I felt re-assured after that.

What has it come to though that I even have to ask these questions and that schools are being given this crazy guidance that they know to be just wrong!