Women's Wellbeing in Prisons

Indeed Purgatory Extra officer time, resources that should all be devoted to women yet are re diverted to these sex offenders. I'd forgotten about prisoners getting free surgery.
I bet if the actual costs of dealing with this group of dangerous prisoners dumped in women's prisons, the cost would run into millions. Just the protocol for placing one trans prisoner in the women's estate involves discussions, meetings, completely inadequate and biased risk assessments that must run into thousands in terms of paid time.
Just imagine if all that money was rediverted from these sex offenders to vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.
A meeting of professionals around the mother and child to determine placement, identify maternity care needs, regular monitoring and a plan for birth and post birth. Maybe special units for pregnant women deemed vulnerable.
They've got the money and resources there - it's just being spent on the numerous male born sex offenders.

And they will be taking up officer time at exactly the same prisons. You can't even say, well, it's a different prison and different people handling the issues. Take, for instance, the infamous Karen White, convicted rapist, placed in a women's prison, where White assaulted more women.

White was transferred to New Hall prison in Wakefield, West Yorkshire, on remand last September after being arrested on suspicion of repeatedly stabbing a neighbour. The attacks on fellow prisoners took place between September and October.

The 52-year-old, who is currently transitioning, was sentenced yesterday for two counts of rape, two sexual assaults and one offence of wounding.

White has previous convictions for indecent assault, indecent exposure and gross indecency involving children, animal cruelty and dishonesty.

Is New Hall one of the women's prisons with a Mother and Baby Unit? According to the list here, yes it is.

backintosociety.co.uk/2021/04/12/prison-mother-and-baby-units-in-england-and-wales/

That "very small group of people" is literally twice the size of the number of places we have set aside for incarcerated women with babies under 18 months old.

129 transwomen in the estate versus 64 places for women with babies in the women's estate. Despite all we know about the impact of separation on the mother-baby dyad. Despite that we know that those who spent time in care as children are massively over-represented as adults in the prison system. The graphic I have saved, which I supplied on the previous page, had it at 31% of incarcerated women had been in care as children. And this has been a known issue for years.

So tell me it's very small again, Lammy.

Mr. Lammy: Prisoners can apply and that person will be subject to prison arrangements for their new acquired gender. We are talking about a very small group of people and the hon. Gentleman knows that that situation would arise in limited circumstances.
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/vo040223/debtext/40223-15.htm
They asked the questions back in 2004 and Lammy didn't give a shit then

why do misogynists like to hang out in the feminism board, I wonder?

I wonder if there's a set of people who enjoy being community disruptors and contrarians. However, there may be an interesting distinction between misogynists and those with internalised misogyny.

Woman's Place UK is having a meeting on the subject of women in prison, which is sure to touch on these themes - plenty of expertise will be in the room.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-not-in-prison-tickets-172327715837

I am, unfortunately, out at the moment, so I don't have my spreadsheet data to hand, so you have to take the following on trust. I'll correct it later on in the evening. The average number of women incarcerated each year in England and Wales is a bit over 3000. The last headcount of incarcerated transwomen was 129.

If we moved them all to the women's estate, that would average out at more than 10 transwomen per female prison. If we avoid placing them in any of the 6 prisons with a mother and baby unit, there will be an average of 20 transwoman in the remainder.

Now what is the purpose of M&B units? I quote.

The aim is to establish and maintain a bond between mother and child, in line with evidence that a key psychological process of attachment takes place between babies and their primary caregiver in the first six to seven months of life, which influences the later development. MBUs are supported by trained prison staff and nursery nurses throughout the stay to teach mothers new skills for when they are released such as cooking and caring for their babies.

Now, how many places are there in mother and baby units?

With an estimated 17,000 women in the criminal justice system thought to be mothers, places on an MBU are highly sought after. There are limited number of spaces with only a 64 mother and 70 baby spaces which means that many applications are rejected.

Horrifyingly, HMP Bronzefield is actually one of those prisons with a mother and baby unit. You'd think this tragedy would have occurred at a prison without a unit. But it gets worse.

The process to apply for a place can be long and complex which means that the mother and child/ren can be separated for a long time before a decision is made. Even in the unlikely event that a mother is granted a place, you can only look after your child until they are 18 months old.

Lucy Frazer QC MP and Minister for Prisons and Probation addresses this issue in the 2020 Review of operational policy on pregnancy, mother and baby units and maternal separation, stating that she wants to speed up decision-making, suggesting that to introduce it before sentencing will mean that mother and child are not separated for too long.

The number of places and facilities are just not enough. Many women are losing their children, some being jailed for petty crimes, which in turn can be devastating, leading to mental health problems, repeat offending and general contempt and mistrust in authority.

“It’s hard to get into this unit,” says Emma. “When I first came to Eastwood Park they made clear on the juvenile wing that my behaviour had to be spotless if I wanted to get a place here. That meant not getting into arguments with anyone, which is hard when you are cooped up with a load of other women in such a small space. You can see that from watching Big Brother. People fall out about anything.”

Continues here: backintosociety.co.uk/2021/04/12/prison-mother-and-baby-units-in-england-and-wales/

So what is going to happen if we lock up, not to put too fine a point on it, a larger number of ejaculating people with the menstruating people than we have places in the mother and baby units?

You would hope Happy, in that scenario, that the mother and child would stay together and the mother/child bond would be respected and the fact she had met the terms of her sentence, she would be free to go live her life with her child. It's funny to look back at how I used to think that was something that was likely. Funny, not funny.

Given the 'false rights' (a phrase from a WHRC webinar) that are now in play I don't think we can trust any of that would happen as a matter of common sense.

For anyone interested in finding out more about the prison protests - that have included the message about women getting pregnant whilst inside a women only prison (how does this happen you have to wonder, in the past you might have expected the male guards to be responsible...) - I would urge you to check out Sovereign Women Speak and all the work they are doing, and Keep Prisons Single Sex obviously for the U.K. version.

www.sovereignwomencircle.com/?fbclid=IwAR1a2aS1ceLECItPVymhbf0533i6KrEOcqDZfJtLjhIyJrdvR9Bz-K07Zp0

Thank you for that excellent post, Pots.

Gc can raise tens of thousands for men kicked out of a course but can't raise a penny for prison services.

I dug for the KPSS campaign, as it happens.

And James Esses.

And Maya.

And numerous others.

If it affects women and children and it needs funding and I can spare the cash, I do. Like loads of us on here.

Wonder how often our TRA friends dig into their own pockets?

Whatever they reply, they've helped my plight. It is of immeasurable benefit to me to actually feel able to say all that. I normally just mutter variants upon it at my phone screen.

It's been very freeing not to censor myself!

One thing I've been wondering about, if a trans woman with a GRC in a womens prison, has sex with an inmate resulting in pregnancy. Woman gives birth around the time of coming to the end of her sentence and is released...TW claims it is against their human rights to be parted from the baby and demands to be housed in a Mother & Baby unit inside the womens prison, with the baby... would this be facilitated? Of course it would mean removing the baby from its natural Mother, but if TW are W then this is where this ideology leads us.
If the Mother is deemed unfit to care for the baby, could the TW claim to be mother? It is mind boggling but the prisons situation is so fucked up one wonders what else could happen.

Excellent post. I await answers with interest.

Very clear post Potholes.

I look forward to @DisgustedofManchester & @anaily replying. Along with what they, personally, have done to help the plight of females in prison- safety and well being.

Maybe, just maybe, they will have something to say also then, about the way at least one prison in the USA has dealt with the potential of PIV sex from males in the female prison estate. You know. Where they announced to the females that the males were coming and handed out condoms?

Like that is adequately providing care to vulnerable women.

I look forward to their replies…. But I won’t hold my breath as I have learned from old that those questions will simply go ignored. Because there are some posters on the Internet that have only the intention to admonish, shame and demonise women who don’t agree with their opinions.

But I live in hope.

Great post, Potholes.

www.rcm.org.uk/media-releases/2019/november/all-women-in-prison-must-have-access-to-equivalent-maternity-care-as-women-outside-the-prison-system-says-rcm-publishing-new-position-statement-on-perinatal-women-in-the-criminal-justice-system/

Honestly, how many times do I have to say this? I have had female loved ones in prison. I used to live in a women's only homeless hostel.

I think about this case and others like it whenever people like you push for mixed-sex prisons. Clearly you don't, otherwise you would avoid this topic, as I normally allow you and your ilk to do so. I never bring up the diabolical care for pregnant women in prison because I can't bear the thought of one of those mothers seeing the crass behaviour of trans activists directed towards their bereavement.

But given that you have somehow managed to discover the issue without having it spoonfed to you, and you're already started on the crassness, let's have this dance.

Exactly what do you think happens when we have mixed-sex prisons? Sexual contact between inmates, as in penis in vagina sex. Consensual and non-consensual. I'll assume you do know where babies come from?

UK prisons can't provide adequate maternity care to the small number of women who enter pregnant. Will they deal better with it when they have a larger number of pregnant prisoners? What if the incarcerated woman is on a sentence lasting longer than nine months? She'll give birth in prison. So we'll have babies conceived and born in prison. What then? What will be in their best interests?

Will she be moved to a mother and baby unit in another prison, disrupting any emotional connections she has with other inmates at a time when she needs more support than ever? What if it was a consensual relationship with the person siring the baby and she wants to stay in the same prison as them? What if the father wants her to stay? Very interested in the answer to that one?

What if there are no places free? Will the baby be removed and out into foster care? It will be the Magdalen Laundries all over again. What will be in the baby's best interest? Staying with his/her mother in prison or being removed from his/her mother, to be restored to her upon release?

What if there are no places free in the mother and baby unit, but she only has a month left of sentence? What does least damage to the baby? Staying with her in normal prison, or being removed, placed with a foster carer and then returned to her when she's released?

What if it's two months? What if it's three? Where is the line gonna be?

And what about the woman's mental health in all this?

What is the impact on her of an unplanned pregnancy? And if the person who sired the baby is a transwoman, is there going to be a legal fight over rhe birth certificate? In fact, if she wants the sire on the birth certificate, and she's been moved to a prison the other end of the country, will the prison service manage to coordinate getting them together in front of a registrar?

Many prisoners especially women are intensely vulnerable. Perhaps we could, as a state, take proper responsibility for their welfare, and keep them separated by sex so they can't acquire new, lifechanging responsibilities at a very bad time to do so? No?

And let’s just pause to think about which cohort of people are affected by this barbaric system? Which ones is it again? Is there a way of defining them, of knowing exactly who might be at risk of something like this, who we need to be advocating for?

Oh yes. It’s women. Biologically female people. The very people that someone like the OP wishes to strip of the word that describes us, a group that has these particular experiences. To make it harder to fight for better protections and treatment for us. To fight for redress against the millennia long oppression and bias against us on the basis of our sex.

OP who is pretending to care about these women while doing OP’s best to undermine safeguarding for them, and using this tragedy as a cheap shot to try and score points against “disobedient” GC feminists.

Low. Really low.

I saw this heartbreaking story on Twitter earlier and signed and shared this petition, others might want to do the same:

twitter.com/hansummers/status/1440662999270760458

Another question: why do misogynists like to hang out in the feminism board, I wonder? 🤔

People do care, just not here, here it's mainly middle class feminism against gender here, those in prison aren't (mainly) middle class.

You have shown that you have no knowledge of the posters who regularly post on this board. Numerous times.

In fact, you have neglected to answer many questions across the numerous threads. Plus you have also shown that you clearly don't read and critically analyse the links that are posted that disprove your assertions.

Why on earth would anyone think that you know anything about this board, or even feminism?

Gc can raise tens of thousands for men kicked out of a course but can't raise a penny for prison services.

And for any readers who have missed anaily's recent efforts, of course they are referring to James Esses case which is superficially about him being kicked out of a course (and that is about as much depth as anaily applies in this linked thread). It is more concerningly about an institution that should be applying an evidence based approach to the treatments for children and teenagers.

In fact, in line with other institutions around the world such as Sweden, Australia and New Zealand.

But crack on anaily because we can continue to link up our evidence all day, every day. It doesn't get boring, because it keeps refreshing our memories on just how much evidence is archived and available for our discussions. So Thanks! It makes each thread that much more informative. As OhHolyJesus has proven this time.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4347130-James-Esses-Case-Evidence-based-therapy

The feminism here is quite different, it's just a single issue group.

Well.... yes. We discuss the upholding and strengthening of the rights for those who have experienced sexist discrimination due to their female body, that which is formed around the production of large gametes even if that production does not happen for whatever reason.

Not just the upholding and strengthening, but also the need for any new rights provisions in light of any current events.

So, yes. We are a 'single issue group'. Feminism is for centring female needs. And women are NOT the carers for the entire world and the world's needs in general.

On this I agree with you.

Thanks fir linking the interview holy

Its a horrific listen.

No one answering

Everything is someone else's department and no one did anything

Zero responsibility taken for what happened.

Great links thank you OhHoly.

Strange that OP and a PP feel that we don't discuss women in prison's needs enough. I am always happy to discuss this as it is a safety issue and one that has affected a family member recently. So.... really interesting approach by both the first two posters.

I can't believe that Disgusted and anaily haven't been back to comment on this.

Shocked I tell you...

For more on the report that is out which details this Bronzefield failures and death, Ombudsman (even with 'man' in her title, as this is the sex and gender board, I feel I must point out that this is a woman, lest there be any confusion), Sue McAllister is interviewed by another woman, Emma Barnett.

From about 2mins in, first item.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000zsnq

Is the OP Ash Sarkar?