Women's Wellbeing in Prisons

Indeed. If misgendering is such appalling violence I do not understand why someone would want to be in a space where they risk being subjected to it. Surely a trans wing in a male prison would be much safer in that regard?

It is almost as if the controlling and and subjugation of women is important for some reason?

It would certainly seem if they're at great risk of being "misgendered" (whatever that is) it might not be totally safe for them... Sounds painful.

Why do they NEED women?

And tell me why these people can't go in a third space.

the thread is being heavily monitored then? but the monitors don't want to come and explain why it's OK to lock women up with rapists and then punish the women when they're able to tell that the rapists are men?

Come on, justify that

Interesting.

'All prisoners are treated fairly ....' (Wolfson, above) my arse they are.

This issue of males with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (MWTPCOGR) in women's jails is one of the aspects of this horror show that worries me most. Those poor women cannot remove themselves from this appalling situation. Beyond belief that any civilised country would treat women like that.

And from what I've read, women prisoners have already been punished for this or are aware and altering their behaviour. I think it was a piece I read about a MWTPCOGR using showers with the women and they knew they couldn't complain else they'd be punished by withdrawal of privileges etc.

Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting.

As part of this, we ensure that all prisoners are treated fairly and in a way that respects their rights, and encourage them to act in a way that is respectful and considerate of others.”

Ah so that was it with Karen White. White wasn't 'encouraged' enough to be respectful and considerate of others and not use their access to female people in order to enjoy continuing to offend .

Women prisoners who call transgender prisoners by the wrong pronoun could be punished with time added on to their sentence, the Government has warned.

No. Absolutely bloody outrageous, this is way past the line now.

White's victims and the other victims of male prisoners in their estate have no responsibility to be respectful and subordinate to those male prisoners' feelings and wishes. This is state supported abuse.

This is abuse.

Placing members of the opposite sex in women's prison, even if they're a rapist/sex offender, leaving the women walking on eggshells and living in constant fear of being raped/sexually assaulted by a male. When a large number of these women will already be abuse victims.

Gaslighting, compelled speech, then threatening to punish the women by keeping them in that awful situation for longer if they don't play along with a (dangerous) lie.

There are some sick, depraved sadists in charge. Honestly, something inside them is fucking broken.

“The Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service are committed to advancing equality, eliminating discrimination, harassment and victimisation (including based on someone’s religion or belief, or gender reassignment status

What a shame you obviously aren't committed to keeping vulnerable women safe whilst they're locked up and in your care. Evil bastards.

extract

Women prisoners who call transgender prisoners by the wrong pronoun could be punished with time added on to their sentence, the Government has warned.

Deliberately referring to a trans woman as “he” or “him” may be treated as breaching a prison rule against “using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour” and could be brought before an Independent Adjudicator – a visiting judge – who has the power to award added days.

The threat will fuel a debate over the policy of holding male-to-female transgender prisoners in women’s jails. In 2019 there were 34 transgender women who were still legally male detained at the 12 women’s prisons in England and Wales.

The punishment warning was sounded by Justice Minister Lord Wolfson of Tredegar QC, who said: “Incidents where a prisoner uses incorrect pronouns for another prisoner will be considered on a case-by-case basis, in line with the Prisoner Discipline Procedures policy and the Prison Rules.

“Prisoners may sometimes make an honest mistake in relation to pronouns and disciplinary action would not usually be appropriate in those circumstances. However, if an officer deems it appropriate to place a prisoner on report, the rule against ‘using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour’ – Prison Rule 51(20) – may apply.

“The adjudicator will weigh each incident on its own merits. The policy stipulates that an offence motivated by another person’s protected characteristic(s) under the Equality Act 2010 is an aggravating factor and may merit referral to an Independent Adjudicator.”

Official guidelines state that disciplinary cases are normally heard by a prison governor, and are only referred to an Independent Adjudicator where there is the possibility of days being added on to the sentence – which is the most severe punishment available.

Under Prison Service policy, any prisoner who has legally changed their gender, and been granted a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) to prove it, will automatically be sent to a jail appropriate to their new gender. A prisoner who identifies as the opposite sex but does not have a GRC will initially go a prison for their old, legally-recognised gender, but may later move between the male and female estates following a case-by-case assessment. This summer the High Court upheld the policy, dismissing a claim from a female prisoner that it placed her at risk to be detained with fellow prisoners who were still biologically male.

Lord Wolfson added: “The Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service are committed to advancing equality, eliminating discrimination, harassment and victimisation (including based on someone’s religion or belief, or gender reassignment status, as defined in sections 7 and 10 of the Equality Act 2010) … As part of this, we ensure that all prisoners are treated fairly and in a way that respects their rights, and encourage them to act in a way that is respectful and considerate of others.”

insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/

Where is OP?

OP have you found this thread useful?

Any further thoughts?

I posted a charity and there are other things you can do I'm sure to get involved in this issue. Did you find that info useful?

That poor young woman: Prison guards, but not mother, get counselling after baby dies in cell

Exclusive: Report from the ombudsman found that the guards who failed to help were offered bereavement support but not the grieving teenager

shockingly, the PPO report found: “Police and coroner involvement immediately after Baby A’s death, and a lack of understanding by the prison of the role of the local child death review team, meant Ms A did not receive the routine bereavement and practical support that would normally be provided.”

McAllister said Ms A was regarded as having a “bad attitude” rather than a vulnerable 18-year-old who refused care because she was frightened her baby would be taken away.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/25/prison-guards-but-not-mother-get-counselling-after-baby-dies-in-cell

Just imagine the same resources, time, energy, interest that are allocated to male people being allocated to female people.

The financial resources dedicated to maintaining this immersive fiction are astonishing. I don't see any budget allocation for the people who are harmed by it.

And who’s actually more vulnerable? A male person who identifies as a woman, who may well be a sex offender, or a pregnant woman and her unborn child?

Too close to call?

I bet if the actual costs of dealing with this group of dangerous prisoners dumped in women's prisons, the cost would run into millions. Just the protocol for placing one trans prisoner in the women's estate involves discussions, meetings, completely inadequate and biased risk assessments that must run into thousands in terms of paid time.
Just imagine if all that money was rediverted from these sex offenders to vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.
A meeting of professionals around the mother and child to determine placement, identify maternity care needs, regular monitoring and a plan for birth and post birth. Maybe special units for pregnant women deemed vulnerable.
They've got the money and resources there - it's just being spent on the numerous male born sex offenders.

Absolutely agree, MrsOvertons and Potholes.

Just imagine the same resources, time, energy, interest that are allocated to male people being allocated to female people.

Thank you Flying Oink. The amount of time and money that must have cost to establish and now to maintain is

In contrast I couldn't find anything as rigorous but a quick google established that the MoJ are aware of the dangers for women and babies and they have a nice press release suggesting things that maybe ought to happen if they can persuade the prison service to get involved and if they're not too busy.....
Can't see anything mandatory, but I know there are experts in the prison service on here who may be able to show us the equally rigorous procedures for pregnant women and babies??

www.gov.uk/government/news/improvements-to-care-for-pregnant-women-and-mothers-in-prison

Ex judge on BBC Today this morning saying that he didn’t usually ask about pregnancy status before sentencing but would expect defence to bring up any issues. Also said that by not sentencing women who may be pregnant, it would give a message to others that they could commit crimes with impunity. Doesn’t seem to worry about the rapists or paedofiles claiming transgender status left free to roam..

Not that an OP is ever beholden to return to a thread but it is about 24 hours now and not a peep, despite showing such interest and concern about this very important issue for women and wishing to raise awareness of the plight of women, particularly pregnant or labouring women, in prison. Maybe the OP is busy raising awareness on Twitter...

I'm guessing that when asking "where are the feminists" and the reply is "here we are", there isn't much left to say

It's an important topic so I mean why it was started is not relevant in the end.

It's nice to talk about something other than the extremely important topic we have been forced into focusing on.

Read thread.

This thread was started not for the reasons stated?

OP you've not been back- it's your thread. Posters have taken time to respond.. What are your thoughts on what could/ should happen about prisons?

I'm going to assume you're interested I mean I don't know who you are as it were.

You can donate to prison reform trust see link ^^.

If not affordable I don't know but there may be voluntary things you can do to help them.

I mean if someone did decide to use the appalling story of a teenager birthing her baby in a cell with no help and then the baby dying. To make a point about something else. To a bunch of women on MN.

Then I seriously think you should reflect on what you are doing to achieve whatever it is.

I mean maybe you're on the line I don't know others seem to know more.

If you were trying to make a point about a totally different topic then I say again.

That choosing to use a story of a teenager giving birth in a cell, with those who were responsible for her care turning their backs, and as a result her baby dying.

Is genuinely despicable and you really should be ashamed of yourself.

If this was genuine then I apologise. And I find it hard to believe anyone would sit down and do that tbh.

I was going to comment on community disruptors and not playing into their hands, but in this case the goady posting resulted in truly informative and moving comments from PurgatoryOfPotholes and I am truly grateful she has taken the time and effort to write all of this. I did not know we had so few places in mother and baby units, I did not know about the glacial pace of decision making on access (I cannot believe this is even happening in 2021).

Thank you PurgatoryOfPotholes for educating me.

Will read thread hope not repeated anything!

Not RTFT only OP.

This is by no means the first and not the last.

It comes up in the media every couple of years or so.

What all the cases I've read include an apparent TOTAL lack of any kind of concern, even a mild hmm maybe better check. For the women AT ALL. in all the cases.

The woman goes into labour. Could be a bit premature, could be as in this case unexpected. Call for help. Nothing.

In a previous case the woman's cellmate was telling whoever came that her cellmate needed help urgently.

Nothing nothing nothing.

I don't know how many prisons are now run by private companies. What I DO know is that prisons with private firms running them are a disaster.

The main issues are in the men's due to the nature IE violence. But I'm sure they're shit in women's as well.

They are run understaffed. Underpaid. I suspect they are not trained as well. That sort of stuff.

This story was heartbreaking.

The difference in the profile between men and women in prison. The % of those in for violent/ sex offences etc Vs others types of crimes.

There are and have been for years massive??? over the profiles of incarcerated women.

The prison reform trust is one charity who I think is good on all this.

www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/

The situation with young men in YOI and all sorts of bullying and the high success rate is something else I find particularly troubling.

In the male estate the sort of casual acceptance of the risk of violence and sexual abuse needs to be done away with. The drugs issue needs to be got on top of.

I mean it's all a nightmare. Thing is there's not much interest in looking after criminals in line with basic decency is there.