Times generation gap article

But in the period where the mother is recovering, her partner should be around to help out.

I don't see anyone saying thats not the case?
What we disagree with is what that leave should be called. Men never gestate and are never post partum.

@Thelnebriati
Yes I agree, of the questions they listed they then compared under 25s to over 25s. Which is ridiculous because they’re comparing one generation of youth to multiple older generations. It is more likely that a 25-35yr old is closer in view to an under 25yr old than a 75-85yr old.

A generation gap is the gap between two adjacent generations, not the gap between one generation and the average of all other generations.

No, I haven’t said that equality equals identical treatment, but it does mean equal time off.
OK. glad we got that sorted!

Back to the survey, some of the questions are loaded and I think its created bias in the answers people gave.
''I know someone personally who describes themselves as transsexual or non-binary'' is more likely to be true for younger people; but did they ask
''I know someone personally who describes themselves as gay or lesbian''
which is more likely to be true for the older generation?

Now, I know U.K. has shared parental leave. But it’s an add on and not many couples are using it because they find that for men, there are not the same protections or funding in place from their employers as there are for women on maternity leave. In other words, UK government is not committed to parental leave. It still wants women to be home with babies, and so doesn’t really support nonconforming couples.

A couple are given say 2yrs parental leave to split however they like. This socially encourages the non child bearing partner to on average take equal time off as the child bearing partner. This then closes the gender pay and pension gap. As shown in Scandinavian countries.

Holding on to outdated long maternity leave and short paternity leave reinforces the patriarchal assumptions that the women will want to take most of the time off and men shouldn’t be expected (or supported!) to take much time at all off. When in reality so many couples would rather there be the ability to split it more equitably, but they can’t afford to have the man off once their two weeks paternity leave is done, so they are under economic duress and social expectation to take the rest of their maternity leave. This then sets back their career and is the #1 cause of the gender pay gap and pension gap. It’s known as the motherhood penalty.

But, and this has been said, women have to recover from the gestation and birth. And men don't.
Which only makes it equality, if you have decided that equality = identical treatment.

Parental leave as a concept doesn’t deny biological reality. It also doesn’t cause sex discrimination. The countries that use it, Scandinavian countries, have the most equal societies between the sexes on Earth.

Keeping outdated separate long maternity leave and short paternity leave absolutely perpetuates sex discrimination in society and the workplace. It’s the key cause of the gender pay gap because women are forced into taking much more time off than men for child rearing.

Once again it's the scourge of pretending to be blind to sources of discrimination (even though it's set down in law). Take away the language and you hide the true source of the discrimination.

"I don't think age is important. I just only employ people with at least 20 years experience but anyone can apply"

"I'm colour blind. It's just a co-incidence that everyone in my company looks like me"

"My company treats everyone the same and our policies are completely gender neutral for inclusion purposes. It's a total mystery why all the uterus havers in my business leave within 6 months of having their first child. The penis havers are a bit less workshy thank goodness!"

Yes maternity leave is very different to paternity leave. Not many father's will begin their leave suffering from major abdominal surgery or in extreme cases, recovering from a near death experience. Even without these traumas, establishing feeding takes a physical toll on women which men can never experience. To remove our name diminishes our experience but that of course is the purpose of not allowing a disadvantaged group the right to name themselves.

Describing reality is not what is holding up the patriarchy.

Ignoring the specific biological needs of women (and men), making them invisible in law causes harm. It does nothing to foster good relations between the sexes.

Can't see sex.

Can't see sexism.

But it doesn't stop sexism.

It just stops you being able to define it and combat it.

Damn. I meant parental leave several times not paternity leave. Need coffee. Wish we could edit posts.

@timeisnotaline

That’s fine that you disagree. But I don’t think the fact that the mother has to use the lion’s share of parental leave due to biology necessarily justifies calling it maternity leave vs paternity leave.

I simply prefer the more sex neutral term of paternity leave as I think the old language and also having separate maternity leave from paternity leave in practice ends up supporting and perpetuating the patriarchal sexism around having a baby and then caring for him/her.

For example, in countries that have only parental leave, it can be shared however the parents choose. But in countries with maternity leave and paternity leave it is always the case that maternity leave is much longer than paternity leave because of the sexist assumption that the woman will be the one to stay home with baby long after she has physically recovered from the birth itself and the father will want to get back to work after only a couple of weeks.

@LemonSwan that’s how I feel about observed at birth. I’m carrying a 20 week female foetus and if my obstetrician thought sex was something he could randomly tag at birth I’d want him disbarred. Obviously he doesn’t!

I am 1st Trimester pregnant.

Maternity leave and shared parental leave are not the same thing.

There are different leave allowances for different sexes, and whether anyone agrees with it or not - Thats the case.

So I don't understand why they are confusing this more. Its a mine field of confusion as it is.

And I am not surprised people are pissed off at it. I have been very aware of what a woman was and a man was for the whole of my life - obviously. But right now, in between the morning sickness, the constipation, the heartburn and what feels like my diaphragm, uterus and cervix reorganising itself - anyone who spouts this nonsense at me during this pregnancy is going to get extremely short shrift.

I agree with pp shared parental leave should have a bit for mother only at beginning. More than 2 weeks which it is for most.

I'd say 6 weeks min. Time told to rest after section.

Oh just realised the bit after the baby is shared parental leave to differentiate!

Sorry!

Plan

Aside from anything else the term parental leave is already used for something else.

Any other renaming ideas?

In practice very few men take much if any. Most wouldn't want to. Apart from other reasons.

Nothing wrong with the term maternity leave. Eh?

The rules around mat leave and pat leave are different. Because you know. Being heavily Pg and working and then having a baby is different to becoming a father.

Eg you have to give work a maternity cert so they have dates etc.

Changing that to a parental certificate (?) would be bizarre. Is my first thought!

Blueberry

Why on earth would inclusive pronouns result in Cadi being made redundant?

It's about missing words. If a society fails to develop ways to talk about the discrimination specifically experienced by particular groups, thereby disadvantaging them, it silences the victims of that group.

But it does not eliminate the discrimination.

I have started to wonder about this 'shared parental' and worry about the effect on mothers. As a pp said, there should be at the very least a period of time ring-fenced for the mother only to allow for time after the baby is born for re-cooperation/establishing feeding. I don't mean 2 weeks which seems to be the absolute legal minimum but enough time to properly recover. I didn't feel myself for months afterwards. It must be even more difficult for other women for a variety of different reasons (PND, baby having been premature etc). Parental leave which the father or partner can take should be in addition to, not instead of.

And no, 'they/them' is not inclusive. I am a woman and my pronouns are sex based.

I work with two women who seem very caught up in it all, one being a young person and the other a woman in her 50s who really should be too old for that sort of thing but is the sort who simply assumes that whatever is seen as politically progressive is good and seems to think that younger people are somehow more in tune to what is right.