Rosie Duffield front page of Sunday Times

Agree @Charley50

It’s back door misogyny.

Worse than that, it is cancelling those who even call out misogyny. And the irony is it is trans women who were born men who will not tackle why they might be uncomfortable themselves in men’s spaces whilst dressed as a woman. Why is that? What can’t that just be completely and totally ok? Oh I know, misogyny!

Charley, two great examples. There has not been enough discussion about the impact on women and girls who just simply will not be able to to use public bathrooms and changing facilities if they are unisex, either for reasons of religion, culture or previous trauma. It's not about being 'kind' or 'tolerant', it's just not going to happen if there is a chance of male bodied people in that space. The world will become even smaller and more frightening for those women and girls, and so many people don't seem to give a shit

Charley
Just awful. This is happening in so many countries and it seems men are systematically being prioritised in just about every country in the world.

In the women's toilets at work yesterday, a teenager was adjusting her hijab, hair showing. Only place with a mirror. I asked her if she could do that if the toilets were unisex. Of course, she said no.

See attached screenshot about how a particular girl who had been raped, feels about being around men and boys since the attack. So traumatic for her. Yet males are being invited into rape centres (even running them?!) and DA refuges. How can these men say they 'feel like' women, when they literally give not one shit about women's feelings.

Bad things happen when good people do nothing… like the Labour Party in this instance.

Jo Bartosch on Keir Starmer: “In failing to act he has not just thrown Rosie Duffield to the wolves, Starmer has let women down everywhere.”

by Lesbian and Gay News September 21, 2021in Opinion, Politics5 min read

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/09/jo-bartosch-on-keir-starmer-in-failing-to-act-he-has-not-just-thrown-rosie-duffield-to-the-wolves-starmer-has-let-women-down-everywhere/

gc is just attacking and restricting trans people's lives

If you are saying that women having a sex based reality and requiring provisions for sex based need is 'attacking trans people's lives' then you're making an admittance that womens rights conflict with and are irreconcilable with what you see as desirable.

Which means that separate provision is needed to equally and fairly meet the needs of both groups.

If your approach was creating spaces for gc people only, then I'd see that as pro gc, as that doesn't go against anyone, it's advocating for gc spaces which isn't anti anything. If that makes sense of my pov.

Fab. We could call them "women's spaces".

If your approach was creating spaces for gc people only, then I'd see that as pro gc, as that doesn't go against anyone, it's advocating for gc spaces which isn't anti anything. If that makes sense of my pov.

That's exactly what we are doing. The Equality Act sets out the circumstances quite clearly when female only is permitted. Regrettably these are becoming fewer and fewer which is why so much effort is being made to reinstate female only services and provisions in addition to mixed sex.

Women likely would pretend not to notice a biological male in single sex spaces because of fear. Fear of male violence. It's as simple as that.
The same reason most toilets put up a sign warning that the cleaners might be male, it's because women are socialised to be wary of men, for good reason.

so provided we don't go apeshit, we must be OK with it.
Yes, I don't know how anyone who tries to use this as an argument can claim to understand women's lives.

Agreed (and I take your point about the apparent distinction between 'nice, harmless transwomen' and the ones having a wank). Many women have talked about catching the eye of another women in the toilet when there has also been a tranwoman in there and sort of doing a 'have you clocked this person? You OK?' type non verbal communication. It would be quite a brave woman to question someone in a confined space who has already shown that they don't respect single sex spaces - you've no idea if the reaction is likely to be aggressive.

So yes, lack of confrontation has been taken for acceptance, incorrectly.

Why didn't she fight back why didn't she run why didn't she just ask for a pay rise why didn't she just slap him why did she stay with him why does she spend all that time and money looking good
Men seem bewildered by women's reactions to things but it's just a lack of empathy.

our reticence is being construed as consent
Because men would react in a different way, and transwomen were socialised as men, so provided we don't go apeshit, we must be OK with it.
It's just male indifference, male-as-default bollocks.

I totally agree with that Flyin0ink. The issue, I think, is that our reticence is being construed as consent when in fact we were never even asked.

I pretended not to notice for a variety of reasons. I imagine this was taken to mean either that I couldn't tell or that I didn't mind: incorrect on both counts.
100%
But what is the likelihood of you or I coming out with any other reaction, really? We're not socialised to challenge someone in that scenario, particularly if he's just washing his hands or whatever. And I'm not shy. But starting a conversation out of nowhere and challenging someone like that is much more difficult than just feeling uncomfortable and leaving. What percentage of women would say something? I'd suggest very few. What percentage noticed, what percentage were uncomfortable, what percentage have never seen a transwoman anywhere?
The assertion that we've all peed next to stealth transwomen is nonsense.

I'll still respect trans people's identity even so, it's the decent thing to do.

You can do that if you want. You can't, however, compel others to do the same, any more than you can compel them to respect the idea that God created the world in seven days.

Sorry - fast moving thread, I was replying to Flying0ink from a few posts back!

Speaking strictly for me: This has happened to me more than once. I could see they were trans - to be honest, it was obvious - but I pretended not to notice for a variety of reasons. I imagine this was taken to mean either that I couldn't tell or that I didn't mind: incorrect on both counts.

We've seen plenty of TRA's gleefully posting pictures while standing in the women's toilets holding a bat, or laughing about women turning around and leaving due to their presence or the truly disgusting actions of some who are deliberately masturbating in women's toilets. All of whom seem happy to be taking photographs and/or video footage in place where women are undressed and vulnerable.
Agreed I meant the argument that nice, harmless, totally indistinguishable transwomen have been in women's spaces for decades unbeknownst to us. Not the "fuck you feminazi I'm going to wank in your toilet and film it because I can" type.

@Floisme I would agree with you - making women uncomfortable or making them feel unsafe enough to leave is not something to brag about. We've seen plenty of TRA's gleefully posting pictures while standing in the women's toilets holding a bat, or laughing about women turning around and leaving due to their presence or the truly disgusting actions of some who are deliberately masturbating in women's toilets. All of whom seem happy to be taking photographs and/or video footage in place where women are undressed and vulnerable.

They just want to pee? Aye, right.

Floisme I'm not sure it is even true.
It's like Schrodinger's transwoman. Simultaneously there and undetectable. Except it doesn't account for the fact most women can clock most transwomen, the fact many women would have been to afraid or uncomfortable to challenge, the fact that trans identifying males in full "drag" were far rarer in the past, and despite there being so few mtf individuals, we've somehow all peed next to one in the past, and this has gone on for decades?

None of it seems very likely.

It's more that we can't prove it hasn't happened, rather than they can prove it has.

I mean, I could say that lizard people have lived alongside humans for hundreds of years, and when you ask me for proof, I say "see? You couldn't even tell they were there. That proves I'm right. And the fairy people too!"

Trans have been included in all spaces for a long time,
I'm guessing what this poster is trying to say is that transwomen have been using women's spaces for some time. This may well be correct - the point is however that they did it without asking.
This is not, I would suggest, something to brag about and the fact that some people keep repeating this as if they think it makes everything OK is very revealing.

Trans have been included in all spaces for a long time
There's never any proof of this, it's absolutely wishful thinking.

I'll still respect trans people's identity even so, it's the decent thing to do.

No. Demanding that other people indulge and enable your personal beliefs by providing to you that they've abandoned their own and put you first is not a 'decent' thing to do.

Respecting other people's diversity is a decent thing to do and it goes both ways

Tolerance is a decent thing to do and it goes both ways