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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Passing

84 replies

leafinthewind · 17/09/2021 11:09

After listening to Ed Davey on the Today programme I was thinking about passing. For a trans person who truly passes, there has never really been a problem accessing the spaces they prefer, right? No one questions a man in the Gents or a woman in the Ladies if they have no doubt that the individual in question is in the 'correct' toilet.

Biological men have been able to enter women's spaces as long as they pass as women. In addition, women have generally ignored access to women's spaces by biological men who don't quite pass but are clearly make a good faith attempt to pass because we are generally polite and trained to be non-confrontational. Finally, women are unlikely to challenge men making a clearly bad faith attempt to pass, because those men are outside the social boundaries we're used to, so we choose not to provoke them for our own safety.

So when Davey says that there should be no spaces for women and girls that transwomen can't access, he's taking a political position, but also describing the world as it is; as it has been all my adult life. We've only ever excluded men who are beyond the pale, and then only when we've had an organisation behind us e.g. a prison. So the key difference between the world-as-it-is and the world-as-he-wants-it-to-be is that men who are beyond the pale in terms of their social behaviour now cannot be excluded, even by organisations. Do you think I've got that right?

OP posts:
Gottalife · 17/09/2021 12:02

@Tibtom

Men don't pass as women.

Women don't challenge men because they are afraid.

They often do

And

Women don't challenge them because mostly they don't give a f...

Tibtom · 17/09/2021 11:53

Tolerated? How? Because we daren't challenge them.

Cailleach1 · 17/09/2021 11:52

Is tolerated the word? I wouldn't approach anyone I clocked as male in a female only space. I'd be aware where they were in relation to me and if I could get out quickly in case of being boxed in. If I clocked a male on entering the space, I may do a U turn if that was an option. Depending on how much I needed to use that space.

nauticant · 17/09/2021 11:43

What you seem to be saying OP is that transwomen who have made a big effort in terms of presenting a feminine appearance, who have been tolerated by women in women's single sex spaces, have been very effectively used as a Trojan Horse to allow the like of Karen White, Yaniv, and others into those spaces.

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 17/09/2021 11:38

I thought that he meant that there would be no places that a man cannot access as written in law.

That laws will be changed by the Liberals which will allow men to go anywhere with no protection for women as a sex class.

That women will be prosecuted under hate laws if they object, harrassed by the police if they try to organise against it, treated as terrorists and prosecuted for hate speech.

I've come to believe it's always worse than you think.

Tibtom · 17/09/2021 11:34

Men don't pass as women.

Women don't challenge men because they are afraid.

Cailleach1 · 17/09/2021 11:26

I agree with you. Hadn't analysed it, but now that you've worked it through it seems to me that Davy reasoning is that women and girls are to be afforded no quarter.

Beamur · 17/09/2021 11:24

Yes, if you put it that way. People like Ed don't want women to have any boundaries or be able to gatekeep safe spaces. Thanks a bunch guys.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 17/09/2021 11:21

It’s also a highly problematic term just in itself - it’s borrowed from the history of racial “passing” in the US, where some African-American people with mixed-race heritage could “pass” for white to escape oppression; but risked social stigma and sometimes far worse if this was discovered - by both black and white communities. (See Nella Larsen’s 1929 novel “Passing”, for example.)

It’s been considered something highly problematic in civil rights movements for a very long time, and obviously one of the reasons why, is the idea of adopting a “false” persona of the oppressor group by an oppressed person in order to survive. In the later civil rights era, “passing” was extremely controversial indeed.

So - quite typically - the trans movement has adopted this extremely controversial term with a highly problematic negative racial history - and turned it into not only a positive goal, but has also completely inverted the meaning - so it now becomes something to be celebrated that someone of an oppressor group can “pass” (deceive others) into thinking they are actually a member of an oppressed group!

For people who like to think of themselves as on the “right side of history”, you couldn’t make it up!

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