Passing

It's a load of nonsense that TW have been in women's spaces for years with no problems. Toilets, maybe very occasionally, but they weren't in the lesbian spaces of the 90s nor SV/DV services.

And who's doing the noticing anyway? Having experienced a couple or so decades of male abuse and violence, I'm pretty sure I've got a good sense of what a man is much quicker than my conscious mind registers it.

straight women are entirely capable of being homophobic and of not clocking lesbian women as women
This makes no sense. I think perhaps you are misusing phobic in this sentence?
Are you saying sometimes straight women think these women are men because of their presentation?
That's a mistake not homophobia.
Behaving in a hostile way because they can tell they're women, but from presentation assume they're lesbian - that's homophobic surely?

I think it is more that some women are simply same sex attracted. Not that people have to actively work to classify same sex attracted women into the sex class of women.

Maybe it is some men's dearest wish to be regarded as more of a woman (by who, I can't think) than a woman who is same sex attracted. We really have to acknowledge that someone's sex class does not change because of their sexuality.

It is not someone's sexuality that would be my issue in single sex spaces. Has homophobia become fashionable or something?

Why wouldn't you think lesbian women are women? When I look at women I have no idea what their sexuality is nor do I care.

I 100% know 3 women who do get challenged and who are assumed to be men. They all hate it. 1 is a radical feminist and 2 are big fans of transactivism. They are all tall and slim. And lesbians.

Straight women are entirely capable of being homophobic and of not clocking lesbian women as women.
It does happen.

Glossing over it isn't helpful.

The point is that lesbian women are women and if someone challenges them, the challenger is in the wrong.
Changing single sex spaces to gendered spaces just means there is no way of resolving disputes like that.

They don't pass. Women are too polite or afraid to challenge them.

They are distinctly men, no matter how they are dressed.

Short of having a beard I couldn't be more GNC - short hair, jeans and XL men's hoodie, men's shoes, no makeup or earrings or handbags. Feels naff even listing the stereotypes but I assume that's the sort of thing people mean by GNC?
I don't get challenged in loos. Maybe a couple of times, possibly, someone looked at me oddly then looked relieved when I turned my face towards them or said 'morning', but that might just be me being paranoid from reading comments like the pp's. Occasional "excuse me sir - oh sorry, madam" in shops. Not that it would offend me in the least if someone did ask to check I was in the right loos/changing. I'd like people to do that. What if you had accidentally gone in the wrong door, you'd want to be told wouldn't you.

In female provision people assume female unless proved otherwise, someone who just looks a bit gender nonconforming really doesn't have anything to worry about.

By and large people don't query in toilets they just scuttle off if they think someone shouldn't be there and it's not busy enough to feel safe. In changing rooms though it would be normal to go back to reception and ask for assistance. I don't want that option taken away from women.

No, passing isn't a possible measure. Too subjective, too much potential for hurt on both sides if you think you pass and you don't. And not fair on trans people to have to be in disguise. Third spaces are the way to go.

Was I fuck. I was likely to get out as fast as possible without drawing attention to myself, because I have a well developed sense of self preservation, largely because growing up as a female you bloody well need one.

I feel like the concept of passing is problematic from a feminist perspective because it relies on stereotypes about how women ought to look.

I've been around Paris lees and mridul wadhwa and neither of them seemed to me like female people seem.
Not based on whether they had pretty eyes or the right kind of make up.

More in terms of voice and smell and vibe which are more or less impossible to quantify.

I wouldn't want to use those experiences to make a feminist point.

I think it's better to have single sex services and facilities rather than making criteria around gender presentation and passing.

That said, I would prefer men using the women's loos to do so with as little as possible in terms of theatrics. I am not qualified to evaluate your lipstick, pal.

I would add that Ed Davey presumably thinks women who object should be prosecuted. That's the additional 'right' these men want. Women can have no boundaries in this brave new world.

I’m annoyed with the argument I often see that ‘transwomen have been using women’s spaces forever with no problems’.
The first time I ever remember seeing my mother truly frightened was when I was 7, standing at the sinks in a small public toilet with two sisters; a new born and a 3 year old. A transwoman was ‘making funny noises’ and came out of a cubicle and winked at me. There was a problem and my Mum was far too scared to say anything.
Men do not understand women and wrongly think that as nothing is said there is no problem.

I dunno. I wonder if it is males who look at a NCG woman and think she is manly. Women may be way more attuned to clock who is male and who is female. Simply because we know we are more vulnerable to the thread of violence from males and it is a survival instinct.

the number of NGC cis women is probably much larger than that of "non passing" trans women. This whole idea of "passing" leads to more "challenges" to them.

The number of TW who can “pass” (awful term) is tiny.
They may think they do but most women know and choose to ignore as long as they don’t feel unsafe
The TW and their allies who try the “gotcha - is this a TW or not?” Use largely airbrushed photos that mean anyone can pass as anything.
I take the attitude that if a TW has made the effort to closely resemble a woman then they aren’t a White or Yaniv. I know not everyone feels the same but that’s my boundary and I DO agree with female only spaces such as medical environments etc however the male person presents

Absolutely but the argument that 'it has happened for years and women don't mind' is false. We do mind.

No comment…

Passing is irrelevant.
But if you think women don't confront men because they're totally cool with them being in places like toilets and changing rooms 100% of the time you are sadly mistaken. Even smiling and being friendly is a strategy that women use frequently to minimise threat. Most men have no idea when a woman is scared of them.

There's no point in discussing whether we recognise transwomen in our spaces. What Stonewall and the rest are demanding is not that women's spaces should be relabelled "Women including transwomen". They are demanding that all our spaces should be relabelled "Gender Neutral" which means mixed sex. So all men can go in freely, without even having to pretend they are anything but men.

What it means is that because transwomen "feel unsafe in men's spaces", all spaces must be made men's spaces so that all women join the transwomen in these unsafe environments. We should stop talking about this as if there's any middle position. It's not relevant whether we're "claiming all transwomen are dangerous", we're being asked to give up any pretence of safety or privacy and allow all men into our toilets and changing rooms and saunas. We should talk about this more clearly.

I think you’ve got that right.