Passing

That was aimed at irresistibleoverwhelm

Best Post ever!

I've been challenged in the toilets, that is to say I have had a few questions, numerous double takes and thankfully only one or two outright nasty homophobic comments.

Generally I go out of my way to ensure women in the women's toilets can tell I'm female too. Normally I leave my coat outside for example, so my boobs are obvious.

I have noticed zero increase in homophobia as a result of women "suddenly" not being on board with fetishist men using the women's toilets.

The article linked is interesting, because the last slew of them I saw, 3/4 were written by a policy wonk from Stonewall (which wasn't mentioned of course).

Also, look at the pictures in the article. They don't look like men...

I suspect that nowadays young people are not allowed to be GNC but also "cis" unless they identify as "non binary". Logically, of course, "non-binary" should be the opposite ideology of "trans"; but we can't think too hard about that either, because then we might have to notice that "non-binary" logic undoes trans ideology and vice versa.

Ultimately, it boils down to "I like gender stereotypes" vs "I don't like gender stereotypes"; but you still have to believe that the stereotypes are real things, and that people basing their whole "identities" on them is perfectly normal and "valid".

The most important thing to remember is that the people who like the stereotypes like the people who don't like the stereotypes and vice versa; but they all don't like the people who point out that maybe the stereotypes are not only not real, but possibly one might have a more fulfilling life not caring about them at all. That, of course, is the very worst opinion ever -- and nobody is allowed to like that.

Just wondering how someone is GNC Cis? Surely the whole point of cis is you identify with and conform to strict gender stereotypes which no one does

..and before any of our friends start reporting me for the bridge reference, no it isn't troll hunting, it's a reference to a famous American con-artist who notoriously proved very successful in his attempts to sell gullible people the Brooklyn Bridge (which he claimed to own).

And yet, if we did not have this issue of males entering into female spaces in the first place, this discussion about non-conforming women wouldn’t even be necessary.

And it still wouldn’t if males respected those female single sex spaces. No matter how much they feel they should be entitled to use them.

Have you seen this yourself? Or just read about it?

That article reads as extremely tendentious to me.

If I have never seen any of this gender policing as a lesbian woman, going out in London and other Western cities with a wide bunch of LGB friends of all presentations from the 90s to the present, why is it seemingly increasing just at the point when everyone is getting more and more accepting of LGBT people everywhere?

I've been around a lot of places and saw people getting called 'queer' or 'lezza' in the street for being GNC regularly until well into the 2010s. No gender policing in the ladies though. And much more acceptance of a wide variety of gender presentation and sexuality than used to be the case. Plus, many women have always been GNC. No-one is in the loo "challenging" Carol from the accounts department who's had a short haircut and worn a plaid shirt since 1985.

Reads to me more like the article has an agenda - to create the idea of "gender policing" being the fault of women, in particular. Especially this idea in it that GNC women feel more comfortable in the men's loos!! Righty-ho, if you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you...

Started to read the article which Catherina linked as was genuinely interested in how this whole debate has affected GNC people. Unfortunately, it's so full of misinformation, presented as fact, including misrepresenting the Equalities Act and referencing that misleading YouGov survey, that it's simply not credible.

If anyone has some actual, credible sources regarding issues which GRC women have experienced while accessing single sex spaces, I'd be interested to read it.

(needs a "shrug" icon)

There are more stories like that.

Finding anyone in the loos brandishing a large weapon might be thought of as making one uncomfortable

Of course they are women, which makes it upsetting for them (and me, watching), when they are misgendered (or missexed, if you prefer) AND gaslit here by those who pretend that women can always tell, because some mystical women power.

Do you live in the UK, CatherinaJTV?

I'm in my 40s, have been around a bit, and I've never once seen any woman "misgendered" in front of me, "watching", in any loo, ever. Neither have I ever encountered any woman in person, GNC or not (and I'm LB myself), who's ever told me this has happened to her, either in North America or anywhere in Europe.

I don't doubt it's possible and might occasionally happen. But I am, I have to say, pretty surprised that you can have "watched" this happen multiple times. Is this in Germany? (In my experience in Germany women are less bothered about being "gender conforming" that in the Anglosphere.)

Why, in any case, would GNC women be either surprised or offended by being accidentally "misgendered"? I've never met any adult woman who particularly cares if someone accidentally mistakes her for a man? It really is not something that adults really care about in the main. If GNC women cared desperately about being mistaken for a man occasionally, presumably they would dress more gender conforming, no?

It's like your whole argument is weirdly filtered through a trans sensibility, without any awareness that for the vast majority of adults especially GNC or LBG adults misgendering isn't a thing, and certainly isn't amazingly offensive.

The only straight people who tend to get upset about misgendering are the very gender-conforming types who put football shirts and flowery headbands on teeny babies in case they catch the gay I've never met a butch lesbian who's having conniptions because someone thought for a moment that she might be a man in the loo. (People who care about that kind of thing usually festoon themselves with gendered items just in case, not the other way around....)

So A gets challenged by B because the think they are not the "correct" sex. Then what? Nothing at all that's what. Unless you want to get violent.

Any male in a woman's space is statistically more likely to get violent so it's doubtful. And yes we know many males don't respect female privacy and dignity.

Photo didn't show - I'm referencing the unpleasant photo linked on page one of this thread which gleefully celebrates a 'cis' woman being made so uncomfortable that she backed out of a set of toilets.

Given the Hate Crime Bill in Scotland, the possibility of being prosecuted for such 'microaggressions' (at work or another place where you have connections rather than a public toilet) is an sinister possibility.

actually - I have exclusively talked about women's feelings, mine, and those of my friends/acquaintances who do/did get misgendered more often.

Of course they are women, which makes it upsetting for them (and me, watching), when they are misgendered (or missexed, if you prefer) AND gaslit here by those who pretend that women can always tell, because some mystical women power.

And yet you ignore those very women, on this thread, saying that opening up female facilities to males upsets them more far more than the odd brief mistake about their sex.

I don't think you care about female people's feelings and needs at all, other than in support of males getting what they want.

So A gets challenged by B because the think they are not the "correct" sex. Then what? Nothing at all that's what. Unless you want to get violent.

Is there research on accuracy of sex recognition split by sex, I wonder?

Dr Katie Alcock’s research is on this topic, in children mostly I think. And she gets a steady stream of aggression and complaint about daring to do this work.

NGC cis women

Please don’t use that term here @CatherinaJTV Women are not a subset of our own sex.

And your argument about non-gender conforming women is deeply sexist. A woman is a woman is a woman. To misquote Gertrude Stein.

Who was an amazing woman.

They have yet to explain why they think keeping those men out of the women's toilet makes me safer in any way.
This was written all wrong I meant to say letting them in

Men don't pass as women.

Women don't challenge men because they are afraid.

This.

I’d add that either afraid, or being kind or polite, as we are socialised to do.

Afraid if the man is a stranger; kind/polite if the man is known to us.