How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

How do we know the female toilets we use aren't already shared with people that were once male? It probably happens quite often and we are none the wiser and go about out lives.

Are you new to all this @Emimummy??
Yes you are missing a 'huge point'- no maybe about it
Try 'break it down for me' : it's a good enlightening read

Why on earth do people think that a woman could not tell the new female was male?

I guess if they have had some very expensive cosmetic surgery (including brow shaving and Adam’s apple changes) , voice training and gait training for their walking, maybe.

Seeing posed pictures or videos are rather different to real life contact in a work situation.

If this person truly identifies as female and is fully living their life as female who are we to say they can't have a wee in the bloody toilets? If you know this person is a decent human being why can't compassion be shown?

I will show compassion to someone who needs support, but compassion does not require that I must give them everything that they ask for regardless of how bad it is for my and the rest of my sex.

A male person who "truly identifies as female" is saying being female is only a state of mind.

They are saying that a life lived in a female body, being treated the way our society treats people with female bodies (some of it good, some of it very very bad) is entirely the same as a life lived in a male body imagining one had been born female.

As a person who was born in a female body - in fact, born as a female body, because our minds are not separate to our bodies but produced by our bodies - I find that incredibly insulting and also dangerous, because it is downplaying the things society does to us and not to males so that a male can hand wave them away as not important to how women experience their lives.

I 100% support the right of male people to live as femininely as they want to. I'm sure we as female people have many common causes with feminine males. But we are not the same, and we are not accessories to use to shore up their self image.

I will not negate my own voice, story and identity, and anyone who would ask me to that does not deserve my compassion at all.

@Emimummy could you explain what “living as a woman” entails. What would someone have to do to live as a woman?

I completely get that it is a tricky situation and do understand why there needs to be rights set out. I just couldn't see myself getting upset with a colleague who I knew genuinely wants to live as female in every way, and stopping them using the female toilets as a female would.

Out of interest, if you had a new female colleague join the company, and then a few months down the line they mention to you that actually they were born male but are now female, would you still feel uncomfortable using the female toilets with them in there?

I just think compassion and kindness goes a long way.

Just not extended to women who need their spaces single sex. Obviously. Not to them.

Just think of what they have been through to get to this point

What have they been through? I don't think changing name and pronouns and (possibly) putting on a dress and a bit of make up is 'going through' very much. Am I missing something?

Maybe I'm missing a huge point, I just cannot see what the issue is if someone feels and openly identifies as a woman, they are trying their best to fully embrace being a woman, but another woman gets to tell them no sorry you can't use our toilets as it makes me feel uncomfortable? it feels a bit like a mean girl situation 'sorry you can't sit with us' what because they weren't born female?

if this person truly identifies as female and is fully living their life as female who are we to say they can't have a wee in the bloody toilets?

How does a male person 'fully embrace being a woman' or 'fully live their life as female'?

And if someone wasn't born female they will never be female no matter how much they think they want to be female. People can't change sex.

Just think of what they have been through to get to this point, to then not have support from their own colleague

Have you ever thought what some women go through to heal from trauma from Males ?

Do you have any concept of what they go through when they are confronted with an male in a space they need to remain female?

Good to see though all your empathy goes to the male sex.

If the person is a decent human being they would respect sex differences , sex based rights , and the feelings of others

And to make it clear, I understand the point about someone pretending to identify as a woman and that is pretty sick and i don't know how the heck you would even tackle that. I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.

Also why would you describe this person as "fully embracing being female"? That's discriminating against non-binary people who might also want to use the women's toilets.

What does this embrace look like? I have a feeling I might not qualify as "fully embracing being female" but I would like to check.

How do you live as a female without resorting to stereotypes around dress hair & make up

Also men being violent to other men is not woman’s job to solve and how to wr keep out violent men if all that’s required ti be a woman is to say that you are one?

@Kit19 It's hard to accept that men just don't "get it", isn't it? For so many women, reliance on same-sex facilities is very visceral, not a deeply thought out philosophical position but just - what a person expects, what she knows to be safest.

One of the most well-known examples of a gay man who definitely used women's toilets was Freddie Mercury, who was quite odd about toilets in general (seems to have been pretty scared of them, had to be "taken" and couldn't go on his own). Obviously he didn't use the ladies all the time, but it was a known thing that he'd go with female friends. Now I adore the guy - I certainly wouldn't see him as a threat - but I still don't think it was right for him to enter a single sex space.

Nor for other gay men to. I do believe some feel legitimately threatened or unsafe, and I can see why it may feel like an easy solution - but I don't think it is.

I just think compassion and kindness goes a long way.

Tell that to the 10 year old raped by a trans woman in Tesco.

I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.
Why do you get to consent on my behalf to something I don't want, @Emimummy?

If I had a colleague at work, who was brave enough to come out as a trans

That's really transphobic. You can't call someone "a trans".

If you know this person is a decent human being why can't compassion be shown?

What if they're a nasty horrid bully? Who decides how decent someone has to be?

Some facilities are separated by SEX. Who do you think you are to decide otherwise for me and all other women?

And to make it clear, I understand the point about someone pretending to identify as a woman and that is pretty sick and i don't know how the heck you would even tackle that. I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.

I've also known young gay friends use female toilets on nights out, one guy in particular was on a hen do with us and came to the toilets with us as there were only male/female toilets, he can't go near male toilets alone after being violently sexually assaulted years back. Before he entered the female toilets he asked permission from the women who were in there already and explained that a traumatic incident left him on a verge on panic attack at going to male toilets, every single woman in there accepted for him to come in without a second thought. I just think compassion and kindness goes a long way.

@Emimummy

Do you also “fully embrace” your muslim, sikh and other colleagues whose religion and culture forbids them from using the same facilities as a person with a penis?

And yes, in my experience men using womens bathrooms do leave piss all over the seat. I use a leisure centre in a particularly rough area of a rough city, and mums all send their sons into the ladies rather than the mens (where obvs all the paedos are). There is always pee on the seats.

So tell me, how do we tell the difference between Pervy Pete and genuinely dysphoric Paul/Paula?

that's all the things you'd do. hope it makes you happy

now explain why other women should put up with men using their loos?

I'm assuming I read 'toilet' for 'bathroom' in your post, unless you have really unusual working arrangements?