How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

I really could but it would then cause everyone to give their opinions on it which is great

I wish you would, because I have no idea what it means for a man to live fully as a woman. I’d appreciate your enlightenment on this. I suspect you won’t, because it’s not possible for you to do so without relying on stereotypes around appearance, or some vague “female” way of thinking - and I think you know that simply doesn’t stack up.

I, too, would like to know what it means to 'live as a woman'.

I wear make-up but plenty of my female friends don't. They are still women. Some women change their names upon marriage. Others keep them. They are still women too.

If someone refuses to answer this question, I can only assume they have no answer.

You're unable to explain how a male person can 'live as a woman'.

You think that male people can live as women but you don't know how they can do this.

You have no facts to back up your assertions.

You really can't, and we all know that.

For me, living as woman means:

Mothering my DC
Suffering a debilitating period every month
Knowing that my biology makes me vulnerable

These are the experiences I have specifically because I’m a woman. I’m open to other suggestions @Emimummy

Oh I know!!! Stereotypes!!!! That is how someone knows they are living like a woman. Whoodathunkit! Silly us.

There is no arguement OldCrone you are asking questions we all know the answer to.

No we don't, and no one can ever answer them, you included. Because I think somehow you know it's patent nonsense. Enjoy the Christmas threads!

it feels a bit like a mean girl situation 'sorry you can't sit with us' what because they weren't born female?

Is that a policy you would apply to all males who would prefer to use the female toilets?

There is no arguement OldCrone you are asking questions we all know the answer to. This has been a very cool evening but I want to go read the Christmas threads now, take care :)

Shame you 'don't know' i'm sure you'll figure it out one day. Good luck

Right I get you’re being snarky but the fact that so many women, me included, have literally no idea what “living as a woman” means is what underpins this whole discussion.

About a decade ago, on this site, a poster asked me how I knew I was a woman. I said I just knew but she pushed me to really think and eventually that question took me on a journey of learning and enlightenment.

I really recommend you think about what living as a woman means. Because it’s the key to everything.

Are you unable to explain how a male person can 'live as a woman'?

So can I assume you don't know either? You think that male people can live as women but you don't know how they can do this? It doesn't seem a very good argument if you can't clarify the most basic points.

Shame you 'don't know' i'm sure you'll figure it out one day. Good luck

making them use the male toilets when they genuinely live as a woman
Your defence of this theoretical transwoman isn't supportive enough. That's what I'm trying to point out.
If you accept one person because they've made enough of an effort to convince you that they're serious, then you are potentially excluding men who identify as non-binary, men who identify as women but who have skin conditions and can't shave their face, men who can't afford women's clothes or shoes in their size, etc.
You're making a judgement on how "genuine" someone is and you'd get torn apart for that by a lot of activists.
You are trying to be "nice" (although you're giving away something that isn't yours to give, which isn't very nice) but even then you have some conditions in your head that this hypothetical person should meet.
It's pretty much impossible to gauge how "genuine" someone is. I wouldn't use it as a guide for anything.

I don't know how anyone can 'live as a woman' other than being born female and living as a human being.

Are you happy letting anyone into the ladies if they don't feel comfortable in the gents ?

Like Kevin who finds the gents smelly?
Or Gary who finds the walk to the gents too long as it's upstairs ?
Or Philip who had a run in with steve ?

No one said make them use the male toilets. The workplace must provide toilets for men and women, they need to provide accessible toilets, and they can also provide mixed sex toilets for everyone who is happy to use them.

Lots of valid points that I do agree with but I still don't feel comfortable shunning someone and making them use the male toilets when they genuinely live as a woman. I know its a hard area and can't be policed really so i guess we just need to build a shit ton of toilets to cover every possible situation...

Maybe I'm missing a huge point,

Yes, you certainly are. If you had RTFT, you might know what you're missing, but evidently you didn't bother.

So here it is: female people are fully realised humans who have rights under UK law. Now your comment strongly suggests you either don't understand the principle of female people having rights, or you don't agree with female people having rights, but thankfully our rights do not depend on whether you or a male person decide we get to have them or not.

I just cannot see what the issue is if someone feels and openly identifies as a woman, they are trying their best to fully embrace being a woman,

I don't believe in your quasi-religious beliefs of people being able to change sex. I am under no obligation whatsoever to share this belief or to surrender to this frankly antediluvian notion that a male person wearing feminine-coded attire is "fully embracing being a woman". Do you even hear yourself? Women are not a thought in a man's head or a costume for him to wear. We are - to repeat myself - adult human females and fully realised human beings in our own right. There is no way for a male person to "fully embrace being a woman" that does not involve him embracing the very stereotypes the male sex has used to oppress the female sex for thousands of years. It is offensive and abusive to pretend that women are the embodiment of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes men used to keep us unequal. I am astonished that you fail to understand something so very basic.

but another woman gets to tell them no sorry you can't use our toilets as it makes me feel uncomfortable?

Yes she does. Do you know why? Because she has rights. And her discomfort matters. It matters just as much as his and that means he does not get to ignore her discomfort with impunity.

it feels a bit like a mean girl situation 'sorry you can't sit with us' what because they weren't born female?

The only mean girl in this situation is the one who shames a fellow woman for not surrendering her rights to a man.

if this person truly identifies as female and is fully living their life as female who are we to say they can't have a wee in the bloody toilets?

We are people who have rights of our own. That's who we are. And who are you to give my rights away? Shall I consent on your behalf to things you do not wish to happen? Why not?

Because consent is not transferable.

That's If you know this person is a decent human being why can't compassion be shown?

Because including a man in the female-only toilets excludes many women from their own space. Why can't compassion be shown to them? Are they not decent humans?

heavily filtered social media photos/professionally posed photos are not the reality. We can tell

How do we know the female toilets we use aren't already shared with people that were once male? It probably happens quite often and we are none the wiser and go about out lives.

Isn't that "passing privilege"? Not all transwomen have the ability to pass as women, you know.

Or feel uncomfortable?

It's not about nice Phil/ippa from Marketing. It's every single male that wants into women's safe spaces. There's no criteria that lets in the genuine transitioners and keeps out the chancers. And we can't tell the difference until something goes wrong.

Women are not collateral damage in the interests of males not being sad. So we need a boundary.

Oh @Emimummy!

Our whole lives as women are predicated on us being able to identify men at 100 paces. Can you really not?!

Oh good grief , if we don't know then don't tell as just laugh behind our backs