How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

I'd like to agree with the comment asking why men can't be kind and keep their penises out of female spaces. Why make women feel uncomfortable...they would be better getting therapy or requesting a third space.

It all boils down to two separate views. All of it does.

view 1: Female single sex spaces should primarily meet female needs and female needs and diversity should be fully met in any changes made to include non female people

view 2: Female single sex spaces should prioritise male users, and any cost to female users is justified if male people are properly served by those spaces. It is not important to meet all the needs of female people or necessary to treat them with the care with which male born people should be treated. This is especially the case for female people who refuse (regardless of reason) to put male needs above their own.

One of these views is male supremacist and anything but inclusive.

For those who simply cannot believe that women can tell the difference between male and female, I posted this on the break it down for me thread recently.

This is an old study done on ability to read sex from faces.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8474840/

Sex discrimination: how do we tell the difference between male and female faces?
V Bruce et al. Perception. 1993.

Abstract

People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hair style, makeup, and facial hair are minimised.

So, no, I don't want ANY kind of males in female spaces. No thank you.

Exactly. It doesn’t MATTER whether the male in question is genuinely trans or pretending to be trans. We don’t know, we don’t care. Allowing one male into a women’s toilet is the same as allowing all of them in, because if challenged, which they won’t be, they know the magic words.

I've read the whole thread. I've yet to see an answer to why it's females responsibility to mitigate the risk of potential male on male violence in toilets.

If the males in my workplace were so violent that another male (regardless of how they identify) didn't want to share a facility with them, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with opening up female spaces to males.

Women do not exist as shields, enhancements, or costumes to the male experience. We are human beings with our own wants, needs and rights.

If the activists had campaigned for safe 3rd space provisions, I would have happily lent my voice to the cause. Instead we have males trying to bully their way into female spaces (let's not pretend it's just toilets, it's scholarships, sports, board positions, prisons etc).

I just want to pee. Why can't males be kind and respect that. Where is my consideration?

For those who say it never happens, it's not that big of a deal, why would a male in the toilet make you uncomfortable, let me tell you a story:

When visiting a pub, it took my then 2 year old child to the toilet as both of us needed to go. As as soon as I entered a male (clearly a male, no passing or attempt to "live as a woman") had the cubicle wide open, trousers around his ankle and leg cocked up on the cistern taking a piss. As I entered, he looked over his shoulder made direct eye contact with me, smirked, and quite clearly stroked himself in pleasure. I turned around and left asap. Both me and my child still needed to pee. I just wanted to pee but me and my young child were both exposed to a sex pest while we wanted to pee. My child had to witness that, and his mother fleeing a toilet designed specifically for her in fear.

So, no, I don't want ANY kind of males in female spaces. No thank you.

You've been on here a long time.

I simply cannot understand why you cannot see any issues. Be it risk, discomfort, stopping going at all.

With males being in anything and everything that was single sex and for females before.

Can you explain in basic terms why it's important to change single sex to single gender?

And why the reason they existed in the first place is no longer relevant?

In the end. The fact is that losing the ability to say you shouldn't be here. Or to get a bouncer etc if there's anyone. For girls to learn that if they're getting undressed in a communal space and a man is getting undressed as well that's perfectly fine. That seeing a penis is nothing remarkable it's just a bit of skin...

I don't get it.

We've both been on here for yonks.

Do you genuinely see no issues at all.

If not. How come?

I simply cannot understand this utter dismissal of the fact. Globally. And forever. Of the fact that there are masses of creepy pervy men about.

Or is it a balancing thing where the risks etc of one group are simply more important than the other group?

Thing is you see. The previous convictions related to sex offences are actually to do with a trans woman being targeted and picked on by the police.

They are a victim of a cruel transphobic system. Persecuted.

They are the victim here.

So there you go.

In the end those who get online and are strongly involved in this will NEVER accept there has been or could be any issues.

TWAW
Whatever ID is stated should be immediately accepted and respected
The women and girls in WiSpa need to get over their irrational reaction to random cock in naked women spa
Prison should respect gender ID and anything that happens when a male sex offender is in with women is a risk they should be managing because women do it too
Any concerns from women about losing their ability to get random men out of bogs changing etc are ridiculous because if a man wants to rape then he's going to do that and there's nothing women or girls can do anyway

Blah blah blah

I'm so fucking bored with this.

However!!!

Because the original woman was a fairly hard core Christian.

And because you know. Dick just skin be nice. Even if you're 9.

Even though criminal record of all sorts including exposure a good while back in another women only space.

I've seen....

Long story. Really long.

Essence is.

Korean spa in California has male female mixed. It's the norm to be naked (mixed shorts though more covered.

Bunch of women and girls come out one woman talks to reception. Dick in the place. Female children there. Video of angry woman.

Spa says not our problem it's the law. Bloke comes and tells her off if in female then must be trans STFU.

Hooha protests violence (blokes v blokes shocker).

Woman who complained turns out to be right wing Christian type. This means she is lying. Also. Whole thing was a complex hoax. Also. What's the prob with cock just skin. Female spa types including female children should not be looking (notice) that's rude. Blah blah.

Turns out penis person has history of criminal activity including exposure etc. Been arrested. 5 women reported.

@coolstorybruh www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4338925-Good-news-on-the-WI-Spa-incident#prettyPhoto

Or to comment on the latest developments in the Wi Spa incident.

I wonder why?

It's a puzzle.

Toilet threads are like TRA catnip grin

can only assume the usual bat signal has gone out

Or maybe, you know, just maybe, it's because not everyone agrees with you.

And now I'm told that I have something in my brain that makes me ... Comfortable with that. I mean. It's massively offensive.

It dismisses my whole... Everything.

By definition according to stonewall I'm trans.

I don't accept that definition.

I don't accept the redefinition of our words.

I don't accept what this redefinition means for women here and around the world.

Sex matters. To deny that is reckless, cruel and to be honest. It's obscene.

Reading more, catching up.

I don't identify as a woman.

The how do you identify stuff is recent.

I am a person. I want to be a person. I have been confused, angry, upset, frustrated, limited. All my life since a small child. By other people treating me in various ways. That I noticed and disliked. Intensely. From as far back as I can remember.

That's why I'm a feminist. It's deep in my bones. Always. Not learnt. Natural. It's who I am.

I have always wanted to be treated as a person. That's all. Not that female. Girl. Woman. Is the important thing.

I think it would not be comfy for them. At all.

Those who say it's wrong not to be totally ok.

Can you genuinely see no reason for the men to not feel any discomfort?

I really could but it would then cause everyone to give their opinions on it which is great but I really do want to just go look at the bargain christmas thread now sorry! honestly i do appreciate everyones opinions they are very interesting but now onto something a bit more fun

You actually could never explain it, no one ever can.
But you think your Christmas bargains are so much more important than womens rights? Well ok then. You do you because women like me will keep your rights enshrined in law ( we hope)

Women put up with an awful lot in the workplace because they don't want to make a fuss.

In my working life I've sat and listened to all sorts of shit. Groups of men chatting about going to strip clubs. Casual talk about opportunities to get a prostitute on overnights with work. Had these things raised in front of me as a power play.

In my industry that's something that happens.

And in reality confronting esp when young feels.. impossible.

Work is tricky with this stuff.

In the end the thing for this person to do would be to use the accessible.

Out of consideration.

That option is available but not taken. And that says a lot to me tbh.

Don't bother with the Christmas bargains, Emimummy, just giftwrap women's rights - cover them in glitter while you're at it, why don't you - and give them away. I honestly can't work out whether you are disingenuous or just staggeringly ignorant.
#BeKind? #MyArse

Why? I mean genuinely, why? What is it about gender identity that means people with the same identity need to pee together?

I know why we have different toilet facilities for people of different sexes but I don't understand why we suddenly don't need those any more but we do need them for different genders.

If the problem for gender non-confirming males is male-on-male violence, then let's deal with that directly instead of pussy-footing around moving everyone the macho boys don't like out of their way.

If the problem is that trans women don't like being reminded that they are not female then let's deal with that directly, by getting rid of the ridiculous idea of "cis women" and just accepting bodies have nothing to do with personalities beyond the socialisation that is forced onto us.

While we deal with it, of course we can set up not "a shit ton of toilets" but just some mixed sex ones where people who for whatever reason don't want to pee with others of their sex can go, and people who want to compassionately support them can also go.

Although let's be very clear, toilets really aren't the biggest thing for me.

I'd be very happy to find a compromise and that might even be one that includes trans women in the ladies toilets, but I can't do that while the people making demands are doing it as part of their overall erasure of female people as a meaningful social, legal or political entity.

So maybe they should stop doing that first, then we can talk about peeing in peace.

There's reduced plastic tat to buy though!

No-one can ever answer that question, can they? We 'all know the answer' but those who are determined that we 'be kind' can't state it without resorting to gender stereotypes (long hair, wears dresses, nail polish etc) or a nonsensical circular definition.