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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Esses Case - Evidence-based therapy

306 replies

RoastChicory · 12/09/2021 11:53

There has been an update from James Esses, who was suspended from his psychotherapy course as he set up a petition to make sure therapists were allowed to explore issues with gender dysphoria patients and not simply affirm the patient’s self-diagnosis.

Shockingly, it appears that the U.K. psychotherapists association put pressure to expel James from the course. They are therefore also now part of the case. If James wins, this would set a very important message to similar associations.

Email copied below

Update on Expelled from my university course for holding gender critical views

Dear Supporters,

Thanks to the overwhelming support I received from my original crowdfunding, my lawyers have now been able to draft and lodge my claim. My lawyers are Akua Reindorf, who wrote the Reindorf review into the treatment by Essex University of its gender critical staff, and Peter Daly of Doyle Clayton Solicitors, who acted for Maya Forstater in the appeal that established gender critical beliefs such as mine as being protected from discrimination.

My claim is in the Employment Tribunal, because both of the Respondents provide workplace qualifications. These are litigated in the Employment Tribunal because of section 53 of the Equality Act 2010.

The First Respondent is Metanoia. The acts of discrimination I am litigating are set out in my original crowdfunding page.

The Second Respondent is UKCP, the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy. This is the main registration body for councillors and psychotherapists in the UK. These are not regulated professions, so they don’t have a regulator in the same way that Doctors have the General Medical Council, or solicitors have the Solicitors Regulation Authority. But UKCP is in many ways a quasi-regulator, because registration with the UKCP (or one other counterpart) is required in order to qualify formally as a counsellor or psychotherapist.

It has come to light in Subject Access Request responses that UKCP were far more involved in Metanoia’s actions towards me than I had previously realised. Metanoia were liaising with UKCP, who were putting pressure on Metanoia in how they dealt with me. My claim is therefore also against UKCP, on the basis that its actions instructed, caused or induced Metanoia’s discrimination against me, as well as those actions being discriminatory against me in their own right. As with Metanoia, I am litigating against UKCP on the basis that it is a qualifications body, but also on the basis that it is a Trade Association – both of these are within the Employment Tribunal’s jurisdiction under the Equality Act 2010.

This is, as far as I am aware, the first claim for gender critical belief discrimination brought against a registration body or quasi-regulator like UKCP. This is therefore an important case because it will have relevance for other regulators and other regulated professions.

OP posts:
Blibbyblobby · 12/09/2021 23:00

@anaily

i get your main issues in life is what genitals people have and who is using the cubicle next to you

If that's what you think people here are saying you have misunderstood.

Please stop seeing what you expect to see and read what people are actually saying. It really is very simple.

  1. Your body is just your body. It is a fixed fact about you yes, but it doesn't define anything about your personality. The only fixed differences between men and women, or boys and girls, are the ones that come from our bodies. Every other difference is just social baggage and it does no one any good. Moving from one social box to the other is a no doubt a little better than staying in a box, but true freedom is to realise there are no boxes in the first place.

  2. BUT - here and now, our culture is still sexist/male normative and because of that, people with female bodies get a rough deal in a lot of areas. It's nothing to do with who they are inside, it's just the way our society treats people with female bodies. To explain this properly is the work of more than one lifetime but to put it very briefly, the way our culture presents male and female means some male people feel entitled to female time, attention and sexuality and react with verbal or physical aggression when they don't get it, while others have picked up the idea that places where females are alone are erotic and so developed a fetish about invading female privacy. Not all males, not even (I hope) most of them, but enough to be a danger and it's not possible to tell from the outside which ones they are. So for those reasons, it's important to have spaces where females can escape from males. I hope this is not the case forever, but for here and now and is.

  3. There is no evidence that trans women (male) have the same challenges as female people (of any gender). Trans women certainly suffer some of the same issues as female people but not all of them, not always in the same way, and they also have issues that female people never encounter. We are often parallel but we are not the same. So while it's entirely valid to say trans women are different to other males and need their own spaces and provisions, it is not valid to say that being different from other males makes them so interchangeable with females that they can move without impact into ours.

  4. Female-specific provisions have historically been called "Women's" simply because at the time "Woman" was specifically female-sex. Unfortunately, the gender ideology's adoption of slogans like "trans women are women" which change the meaning of the word Woman has created an expectation that these female-only provisions must be open to trans women (male) as well simply because they still use the word Woman without acknowledging this is Woman in its old meaning. A moment's thought shows the fallacy of this assumption, but it's become an act of faith in the gender movement to challenge any single-sex rights, spaces or provisions. This unfortunately has lead some trans allies to assume that gender critical feminists are somehow "anti trans" when the reality is they simply want to separate rights and provisions based on sex (which is unchangeable and nothing to do with gender identity) from those based on gender.

And that's basically it.

The long term goal is to get rid of boxes other than what is necessary to mitigate the inescapable differences that come from our biology (who has periods, who can hit hardest, who needs maternity support etc), but until society stops tacitly allowing poor treatment of female people by male there is a short term need to protect female people with female only spaces.

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:59

No i can't, i can't provide black people commit less crime either, it doesn't mean they are also a safeguarding risk. Your rule can be applied to literally any group to make them to be dangerous.

Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:58

@anaily

I'm not, no. The ex gf is in the article. So i have to weigh up your opinion and the ex gf's lived experience. Factor in the media stir up anything. Who do i believe.
It is transphobic to not believe the person saying they are trans. Surely you understand this. It doesn’t matter what the ex girlfriend has said. Or the media. Or you.
titchy · 12/09/2021 22:56

@anaily

I don't agree with them being in a womans prison, they should be kept isolated elsewhere.
Transphobe Grin
Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:56

@anaily

I don't agree with them being in a womans prison, they should be kept isolated elsewhere.
But if they have a GRC, if they have changed their birth certificate, how does anyone know if they are male or female and what prison to put them in?
Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:54

So basically birth certificates are dangerous because some men commit sex crimes?

Can you provide evidence or statistics that prove transitioned males commit sex crimes at a decreased rate than other males?

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:52

I don't agree with them being in a womans prison, they should be kept isolated elsewhere.

Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:51

So far that's what it seems to be about, with the gender reform, suppressing transgender peoples self identity.

You know that the feminist discussion boards are for discussing women’s rights and how to strengthen the rights for women and girls to make sure they protect the needs of those women and girls? Not to discuss trans rights unless they are for females who identify as trans (ie. Transmen).

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:51

So basically birth certificates are dangerous because some men commit sex crimes?

Deliriumoftheendless · 12/09/2021 22:51

@anaily

I'm not, no. The ex gf is in the article. So i have to weigh up your opinion and the ex gf's lived experience. Factor in the media stir up anything. Who do i believe.
And yet they ended up in a women’s prison.

Why?

titchy · 12/09/2021 22:50

Maybe anaily thinks James' case is just about children changing their birth certificates? 🤷‍♀️

Good they're keeping the thread active though!

Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:46

@anaily

Genuinely have no idea who those 2 people are. Safeguarding? Trans non binary and birth certificates are no threat to me.
Righto. Thanks for being honest that you have no idea about how safeguarding works.

Maybe you could tell us why males were excluded from female single sex spaces in the first place?

And then, maybe you can produce the evidence on exactly how males who transition have any different criminal pattern to males who don’t transition. Everyone knows that ‘not all males are like that’ and we don’t need to protect ourselves from a large proportion of males. But please produce the research or statistics that prove that transitioned males don’t commit sex crimes at the same rate as other males.

By the way, there is some links about this on that thread you keep telling us doesn’t tell you why ‘birth certificates’ are dangerous…

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:43

I'm not, no. The ex gf is in the article. So i have to weigh up your opinion and the ex gf's lived experience. Factor in the media stir up anything. Who do i believe.

SpindleWhorl · 12/09/2021 22:41

Anyway, best of luck to James Esses.

I'm pleased he has secured a strong, albeit small, legal team.

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:41

How do i ask in "good faith"?

Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:40

Karen white was or was not trans?

They are if they say they are. It is transphobic to tell someone they are not. Are you deciding who is and isn’t?

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:40

Genuinely have no idea who those 2 people are.
Safeguarding? Trans non binary and birth certificates are no threat to me.

SpindleWhorl · 12/09/2021 22:39

Best ignored now I think. Not posting on good faith for sure.

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:38

You seem to be stuck discussing birth certificates? Why

So far that's what it seems to be about, with the gender reform, suppressing transgender peoples self identity.

Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:37

Do i believe an entire minority is the same as Karen? No.

Do you actually understand safeguarding at all?

EishetChayil · 12/09/2021 22:35

We know your game @anaily. Just like Shizuku and Blueberry before you.

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:34

Karen white was or was not trans? I couldn't find anything about grc. Do i believe an entire minority is the same as Karen? No.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169813/Rapist-Karen-Whites-ex-girlfriend-says-gender-change-sham.html

Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 22:34

@anaily

Links to a 30 page thread that has no explanation of how birth certificates are dangerous doesn't answer anything. The only time i read about gc is some drama around transgender people.
You seem to be stuck discussing birth certificates? Why
Soontobe60 · 12/09/2021 22:33

genuinely don't see how a birth certificate affects anyone's life, no one has explained it yet. So i may be missing something but no one is offering to explain or answer my questions. I'm inclined to listen to the minority group than those talking about that very group. I started looking into it after the pub thing where gc got kicked out, good people don't get kicked out for no good reason

So why do some trans people insist on changing their birth certificates if they don’t affect anyone’s life? Sounds transphobic to me.

The women who were asked to leave the pub because the trans bar person identified a woman who was known to hold gender critical views were absolutely asked to leave ‘for no good reason’ other than holding perfectly legal, acceptable views. They’d been in the pub for 2 hours minding their own business before being asked to leave. Marion Millar left immediately, because she didn’t want any trouble with the TRA.

SpindleWhorl · 12/09/2021 22:31

My main concern is safeguarding.

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