James Esses Case - Evidence-based therapy

Good grief - I'm not sure how what I said makes me seem to be a TRA. "Boys are biological boys, but lets get rid of stereotypical definitions ... " if that helps?!

Wow. I'd have guessed this poster to be new to this board, only I recognise the name.

Feminists believe biology to be the only restriction on being a girl or boy, woman or man. People can dress, present, be, do, love however they want. Adults can even choose surgery or hormones, but our sexes remain. In the same way gravity continues to exist despite me boarding a plane. This is not incompatible with being trans either. Not all trans people try to override women's boundaries or force previously single sex services to become single gender.

I really wish TRAs would not misrepresent feminists when attempting to argue against us. I struggle to see the point, if they don't actually understand what feminists think! What is the end game? To further divide women /left wing politics?

I just chanced upon this on twitter. I will be watching, if I get the access pin in time.

No, GC people are the ones who DO NOT tell anyone to conform to sex/gender stereotypes. We say stereotypes are outdated rubbish, and no one has to conform to them. That has been the standard feminist view for at least 50 years in my experience.

Girls don’t have to wear pink, and liking pink does not make you a girl. Similarly, riding a motorbike doesn’t make you a boy, and boys don’t have to like motorbikes.

It’s the gender identity movement that says gender non-conforming children are ‘born in the wrong body’. Feminists and other GC people know that no one is born in the wrong body. If you’re distressed by not conforming to a gender stereotype, then you need to be away from people — such as the gender identity movement — who try to enforce those stereotypes on you.

Jeez, how many times do we have to repeat this simple fact?

James has Akua Reindorf as his barrister. I am looking forward to hearing her in action.

I don't think you've got a grip on what gender critical beliefs entail anaily! Not "boys will be boys", but rather "boys are boys, but let's get rid of stereotypical definitions of what that means about how they should dress, play, and behave".

Emailed for an access link. Thanks for the details.

I must say, one thing this whole debate/fight whatever instills is patience. So many legal cases which I am interested in, and they are achingly slow. The wheels of justice are very slow indeed. I can't imagine what the waiting is like for the claimants.

Quite alot has changed since he was expelled from the course. He can point to cass interim report, medical bodies in Sweden, Finland, Australia & France starting to see that things have gone awry. And the significant people in gender medicine in the states starting to blow the whistle. Obviously Idk what he will have to argue, but it seems like there is enough respectable opinion now that supports the view that he had a point and should not have been pushed out for making it.
It will be interesting to hear what the other side argues.

Update on James Esses court case (below). For those who followed Allison Bailey's court case, it's also possible to get public access for this one.

Update on Expelled from my university course for holding gender critical views

Dear Supporter,

As you will be aware, my 3-day Preliminary Hearing commences tomorrow at 10am.

The hearing is being held because of applications made by two of the Respondents to have my claims against them struck out. For the purposes of these applications, the tribunal must take my case at its highest.

I will be giving live evidence and will make my witness statement available online if I am able to do so.

If you would like to watch any part of the hearings, you can request login details in advance by emailing ‘[email protected]’ and quoting my case numbers - 2206164/2021 and 2206708/2021.

I will of course provide a full update once the hearings have concluded and we have received a judgment on the issues.

As always, I want to thank you for supporting me. It has taken us a long time to even get to this stage of the proceedings and I very literally could not have done it without you.

James

In fact, I'll ask them again -

Are you saying that advocating a 'watchful waiting' approach is explicitly anti trans inclusion?

Are you saying that the only way to be trans inclusive is to begin medical transition when a child says that they are trans?

Are you saying that there should be no support from therapists in order to understand the reasons whya child wants to transition? Despite the huge spike in girls in particular wanting to transition?

You may have misunderstood what i said, i said the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion

That is one of the most pitiful untruths I've ever read on MN, and I've read a lot on here.

Surprisingly for this study it is nearly 9% for males. I believe this would be because this was before the spike in young female transition, AND the fact that surgery for males is far ranging but does not clarify that it was removing penises. Whereas I guess as a female surgery is more focused on irreversible surgeries such as mastectomies, hysterectomy and maybe a few genital surgeries.

So much to research, so many lost opportunities and so many lives irreparably changed by lack of quality care.

Well Viv, it is only one association at the moment. There are others that need to address their guidelines in both countries. And the governments will need to, too.

But it is a start. The backtracking is happening quietly.

It is my feeling that the Australians will start with malpractice suits earlier. I could be wrong but insurance is a huge cost there as well. These guidelines will reflect the need to cover bottoms from the lawsuits.

The European study gets lost a lot of the time. It will get posted from time to time as a gotcha for ‘success’ by posters who simply never read what they link to. I have seen estimations for close to that on another study too, but I have forgotten where.

Importantly, this was before the spike in transitioning young females even started. Seeing the number of detransitioner females going each week, I expect the % will hold steady or be higher.

God help us from uninformed posters without critical thinking skills who believe they are the righteous ones.

Holy crap, Helle, I hadn't seen this www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/policy-and-advocacy/position-statements/gender-dysphoria

Jacinta's going to have a fit. She's firmly hard of thinking over these issues.

Thanks for the other study too, and agree, 8% is a lot when the treatments are so intrusive. These kids are not just getting a piercing or wearing kohl like we did in the 80s to signal our teenage angst. I could weep for them, I really could.

I'd buy a lottery ticket every week on 8% odds.

helleofabore 8+% is big. Huge!

*you said that a woman having a baby would have needed to have been with a man in order for that to happen.

In fact, because this thread is so important, I am going to post this study again too.

This is a European study of adults post medicalised transition over a significant time period. Maybe it would serve those seeking to allow children and teenagers to make irreversible treatment decisions to remember many of these in the study were adult transitioners!!! (and even GIDS admits there are adverse long term effects that are unknown - a good thing though that we know about that Lupron class action )

So adult transitioners with a detransition rate of over 8% after medicalised treatment.

Anybody downplaying the enormity of this rate and the enormity of the impact (life limiting and life shortening) of puberty blockers and testosterone on female bodies needs to understand what they are choosing to ignore.

——-

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

This is a small study but states:

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

——-

Those numbers are pretty significant aren't they? And I point out these 8% figures are for POST medicalised transition.

It certainly makes me all the more concerned that a treatment plan that has been shown to perhaps have an 8+% rate of desistance from living in the 'gender' role they chose to have surgery to facilitate, is being hailed as the best course of treatment. At all!

No wonder the lobby groups did not want anymore longitudinal patient reviews done and labeled them transphobic. It shines the light on what they do not want to see or acknowledge.

Little interest that should be.

And what is it about the fact that the same system is probably not fit for the purpose that it is being forced to allow decision making is problematic for you?

After reading all the links I have posted, you still don’t showing any depth of understanding.

Consenting to an immediate treatment that hopefully has no or very well known long term consequences such as the pill or an abortion is rather different to a 9-12 year old or even a 15 year old consenting to losing sexual function, and the high likelihood of early dementia through loss of ovaries so young due to atrophy, loss of bone density, ligament issues to loss of teeth etc (some of Lupron’s known effects about to be subject to a class action court case in the US). That is just to name a few.

Let alone the lasting nerve damage from double mastectomy of healthy damage that can be excruciating. And there is more and more of you listen to the detransitioners who weren’t even on these drugs for long.

Do you understand there is no evidence that this even helps individual female transitioners?

These decisions are different, and I would suggest, has a much less definable affect than the previous uses of Gillick. Yet, trans activists are also willing to throw those previous uses of Gillick under a bus to demand what they want. … just another reason that this is not the ‘gotcha’ you have been led to believe by random activists on the internet.

You again seem so keen to ‘gotcha’ but I think it is very clear you have interest in actually discussing this or seeking to understand. All you are doing now is giving a live demonstration of the usual activist tactics for lurkers.

So crack on. I can keep going all day. I can continue to find links to post, whereas, it becomes blatantly clear you have nothing.

This isn't the gotcha you naively think it is.

So much for hyperbole. His work to destroy rights continue, funded by you. Read that then pat yourself on the back.

Sought not sort

Here you are @anaily fresh off the press.

www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/policy-and-advocacy/position-statements/gender-dysphoria

The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists have now updated their guidance. Just in the last day or two.

‘Recognising and addressing the mental health needs of people experiencing Gender Dysphoria / Gender Incongruence’

They are now warning that there is NOT ENOUGH evidence to recommend affirming only treatments or indeed any particular treatment plan. They now say that underlying health issues should be treated at the same time. And warn that medicalisation of children and teens be very careful and thoroughly explored considering the ‘paucity’ of evidence at this time.

I think you might find that this is close to what James was advocating for. That you have derided and decried for all sorts of reasons. Little by little medical authorities are back tracking as more studies, more patient reviews are coming in.

I see daily, in real life, the potential harm of pushing an agenda that is not focused on making sure the wide ranging mental health issues and implications of teenaged girls are not being prioritised by adult male activists who have influenced policy. Do you?

Or are you just fighting against us getting the best health care for our daughters because somebody on the Internet told you that those daughter’s parents hate trans people?

Maybe it is time to actually read those links now. And understand the implications of what is happening and that perhaps the people you have sort to shame for supporting people like a James, have far more on the line than feeling good about who happens to ‘align’ with them.