Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual

Nonsense. Accommodation is divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the overwhelming majority of assaults upon women are carried out by men.

Lol, some people seem to be labouring under a misapprehension that lesbians are incapable of making unwanted advances.

Lesbians, however, do not assault women who reject them. Neither do lesbians assume consent and take what they want. Lesbians do not rape other women.

How can she tell? That’s her answer? If Eddie Redmayne turns up it’s an issue, but Eddie Izzard is fine?

For a lunch that’s one thing, for shared sleeping accommodation and showers, that’s quite another.

OP I would go back and just say that she needs to make it clear on the site etc that they are trans inclusive.

That's not tricky and it's up to her whether she does it or not.

I'd leave it then you've done your best and you can't force her to do anything.

Well I suppose you wouldn't be a person interested in using this org for a break then.

Which is your choice.

Others make different choices.

Eg to be comfy sharing with females but not males.

This is how a lot of women and girls feel.

Lol, some people seem to be labouring under a misapprehension that lesbians are incapable of making unwanted advances. I can assure you, at a population level, they are perfectly capable of these in the same way that men are. I'm a lesbian and have experienced this from other lesbians as have my friends, we just know who to avoid, that's all.

I think the organiser needs to stop advertising this as a single sex event.

Adult women are well capable of making a decision if they want to attend such an event, but its a basic courtesy to allow them to make that decision knowing the full facts.

I don't want to change with or sleep in the same room as men I don't know, for reasons that are obvious to pretty much every woman and girl I know. Primarily because they are male, secondly because some of them (NAMALT, yeah, yeah) make me feel uncomfortable, and some others downright scare me.

Yes. Given the way implied consent is handled in the legal system at present, I wouldn't fancy my chances in the stunningly small risk that something went awry.

"Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual" - that's complete nonsense.

Accommodation is divided along sex lines for reasons of safety (primarily) and for privacy and dignity.

I, as a heterosexual woman, have never even considered that staying in a room with, or changing in front of, women who might be lesbians or bisexual would be in any an issue. I don't give a shit about that and I'm surprised to see such a homophobic suggestion on a thread about activities for lesbians and bysexual women .

I don't want to change with or sleep in the same room as men I don't know, for reasons that are obvious to pretty much every woman and girl I know. Primarily because they are male, secondly because some of them (NAMALT, yeah, yeah) make me feel uncomfortable, and some others downright scare me.

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexua

Accommodation isn't single sex to avoid sexual attraction happening FFS

Can we not be honest, possession of a GRC doesn’t do diddly shit to solve this issue.

The organiser is right - how can she tell? She is not in a position to know the genitalia of the people attending, unless she demands you all strip naked?

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual - in this instance there will be a load of lesbian and bisexual people attending and sharing rooms who experience same-sex attraction, so the principles that usually determine separation of accommodation are out of the window anyway.

I'm still unclear on the legality of excluding men if it's not single sex. Single sex things are permitted, but can you turn men away if it's not single sex? Admission of transwomen seems to blow away the use of the single sex exemption, afaict. A space is either mixed sex or single sex, you don't get to selectively sex discriminate only against some males. (Similarly for any claim to be for non heterosexuals, assuming they're heterosexual transwomen).

She will start getting complaints and losing customers very soon, I imagine. It may be that accepting trans males will make the business unviable. Time will tell.

TBH I'm not sure whether she's required or permitted. But it's certainly required for most of her female clientele.

*I just checked my messages and the organiser has responded 'Transwomen are legally women, surely? How am I to tell?'
*
I think the answer to this is "Not usually. And even if they are, there are situations where you are required to recognise that they are male. Such as with regard to communal accommodation, and other situations which it is legal to give females privacy from males."

At the least, the organiser needs to be clear and specific in all information shared that this will be a mixed sex lesbian/bisexual event. (And yes, I know, but it needs to be spelled out.)

The organiser also needs to be aware that by including male people in this women's event, they will be excluding female people who otherwise would have been able to attend, many of whom will be protected under the Equality Act too.

In an ideal world, perhaps consider two separate events, one of which is mixed sex and one of which is single sex, including the exemptions. There will be some female people able to attend both events, however there will be a group of female people who can attend only one, and there will be a group of TW who can attend only one. To ask both groups to respect the other's event and to permit the meeting of everyone's needs seems a perfectly reasonable request.

Can you respond to say that many women will not appreciate being in single-gender, mixed-sex accommodation and they should be made aware of this up front.

If women are happy to share sleeping and showering spaces with transwomen then that's great but no-one should be put in the position of turning up expecting a female friendly space and being blindsided by this.

You did what you could. It would be useful if the organiser detailed that the women and lesbians encompass a range of gender identities rather than the conventional sex categories. However, if the organiser doesn't wish to acknowledge the complexities, it does not confer an obligation on you to do this thankless task.

Have you alerted your friend to this covert state of play? If so, that's probably sufficient at this point.

Awful situation and how very sad that lesbians and bi women are losing nice events and a safe space. I suspect the shared bedrooms will make this a train wreck and the organisers will be inundated with complaints. I'd certainly warn your friend privately. I would also avoid future events by this company. I suspect if you want future nice lesbian only events you need to organise them yourself. It's wrong, I hope it's temporary, it's what the TWAW brigade have pushed for

there will be someone suing an organisation for not having appropriate measure in place to keep members safe at some point
Definitely but someone suing or doxxing or sending in the flying twitter monkeys if men are excluded is more likely.

The organiser clearly doesn't mind but her customers might. But by that point she's got their money, hasn't she?

Due to this thread, I've had a look at some organisations offering lesbian holidays. 1 of them specifically refers to the Equality Act in the context of who the holiday is available to. Which I take to mean that it is open to a male bodied person who has a gender recognition certificate, but that's it. Maybe your friend could do this.

Maybe also suggest that if she wants repeat business this is probably not the right way to organise things...

You could let her know that they are not legally women unless they have a GRC. And point to the legislation that clearly says even then there are exceptions, and ask if her public liability insurers are aware that the accommodation is mixed sense - because there will be someone suing an organisation for not having appropriate measure in place to keep members safe at some point and you wouldn't want it to be her...