Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

Setting aside the research on intimate partner violence (which I am not qualified to interpret and is anyway irrelevant to the OP's point), are you genuinely suggesting, @suggestionsplease1, that women are at greater risk from lesbian/bi women they are not in a relationship with than from straight men they are not in a relationship with?

There are quite a few studies in this area now. I know people are ideologically motivated to discredit them on these boards as it does not fit in with the narrative, but the broader picture shows they do hold weight.

The studies often acknowledge the attempts to downplay this issue amongst lesbians themselves and in some feminist commentary and note that this atmosphere is what can make it harder for lesbians to open about their experiences and get the support they need.

And the demographic most likely to have been abused is bisexual women but again that oft-quoted survey doesn't specify that means abused by other women and not by men. Given that 90% of bisexuals are in relationships with the opposite sex as per the Pew survey, it would make sense that a minimum of 90% of DV suffered by bisexual women would be from a male partner.

This survey asks specifically if lesbians have been abused by a same sex partner and the answer is 22% have.
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=sigmaresearch.org.uk/downloads/domesticviolence.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi0mJLG9fvyAhWSX8AKHUikCbsQFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw29z3bvdUw2zYQmfLuQnzLo" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">link

You can look up the research on this, and unfortunately there are some studies showing higher rates of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to opposite sex relationships
The survey has been debunked several times. It said lesbians and bisexual women were more likely to have been the victims of domestic abuse, not the perpetrators.
I know abuse exists in lesbian relationships but that survey is misquoted so often that it has imprinted on people's understanding of the issue.

suggestionsplease1 how do we know your particular statistics on this do not include men, given how they seem to want to rename themselves as lesbians pretty frequently? I call bs.

I've taken a couple of key quotes that refer to the research finding higher percentages of lesbian women experiencing DVA / IPV compared to heterosexual women but it's best to read the full studies.

I've read those studies in the past. We would differ in our interpretation of the key findings (and that would differ again from our selection of "key quotes").

This is a thread about a specific situation in the UK. You made an assertion and were asked for (in my case) UK figures or studies to support it. I accept that I am not the target audience for your references.

[quote futureghost]@suggestionsplease1

Your argument is such a straw man. Women are wary of men because nearly all women will have experienced harassment, intimidation, voyeurism or assault from men - as well as being brought up with media news stories and fictional stories depicting women being assaulted and killed by men. Most men are bigger and stronger than most women making self-defence difficult and unlikely to be successful for women.

This is why women do not want men in their intimate spaces. Decent men know and respect this. Predatory men and misogynistic men do not.[/quote]
It's not really a straw man in this instance though is it?

The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men.

People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

@suggestionsplease1

I am struggling to think of why you think this is relevant to the topic of the OP. These studies are for people already in relationships. Inthe OP we are talking about women feeling intimidated by men they do not know but who have chosen to enter women only spaces/ intimate spaces such as showers, toilets and hot tubs!

As I stated above, nearly all, if not all women, will have experienced harassment, intimidation, voyeurism and assault from men they are not in relationships with. Very, very few women will have experienced this from women they do not know.

We have single sex spaces to protect women from sexually predatory men. That includes voyeurism.

@Shedbuilder. I have been following your thread with interest and just came on to sympathise.

I had a thread a couple of years ago where I was put in an awkward situation with a TW sharing accommodation. It wasn't exactly the same as your dilemma but had some similarities. If you search on my user name you will find the thread.

Covid intervened and my planned trip was cancelled so the situation resolved itself but I am sure the same dilemma will arise again at some point.

I hope you work something out for both yourself and your friend. And I hope you have alerted the organiser enough that she starts to think things through.

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01506/full

"Life-time prevalence of IPV in LGB couples appeared to be similar to or higher than in heterosexual ones: 61.1% of bisexual women, 43.8% of lesbian women, 37.3% of bisexual men, and 26.0% of homosexual men experienced IPV during their life, while 35.0% of heterosexual women and 29.0% of heterosexual men experienced IPV. When episodes of severe violence were considered, prevalence was similar or higher for LGB adults (bisexual women: 49.3%; lesbian women: 29.4%; homosexual men: 16.4%) compared to heterosexual adults (heterosexual women: 23.6%; heterosexual men: 13.9%) (Breiding et al., 2013)."

d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/56436846/LombardCompanion_BarnesDonovan_LGBT_DVA_mockREF-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1631536195&Signature=DrVprZjKu9SQhjL9pqUCFh8ZHW~Qlbz9xXtMl1pFKjMoF~sxkLciSi3gb5N5~1dkBxTQdtzOTJTs3MsgEu9f-nB3F~hhpwZXXAVIuR-P~qFL5aA~4um-bJhOSYsZy2DPgbSadomlySHyGFBtbGt0sbtIuuz26-WLHt9x9J6OasgteZ2aKnIVmhfqBcnaz9Q~QsU8MyJIvLSZ3X8teIuBh7vtcTgY2byJ323EzGOqh4NMXCfg3uDlonU8KlLCReenBg~a10LiHaCCmd~pXaLSfqIcr52K6mxd~DQFmX2CHC~YR9GI5XooCDGOVgXA4XIuwyxdvjmf1Bf-lDS2gra07A__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

"A recent meta-analysis of 14 US studies of the prevalence of DVA in lesbian
relationships, found prevalence rates for physical, psychological/emotional and sexual abuse
were as high as 58%, 64.5% and 56.8%, respectively (Badenes-Ribera et al., 2015)"

I've taken a couple of key quotes that refer to the research finding higher percentages of lesbian women experiencing DVA / IPV compared to heterosexual women but it's best to read the full studies.

I can see how this would put an end to single-sex events for women.
Because of the narcissistic insistence that we women validate Transwomen’s “female” status. Because, as we all know, it’s our job to look after everyone- even those trying to steal or erase our existence and our hard-won sex-based rights.

@suggestionsplease1

Your argument is such a straw man. Women are wary of men because nearly all women will have experienced harassment, intimidation, voyeurism or assault from men - as well as being brought up with media news stories and fictional stories depicting women being assaulted and killed by men. Most men are bigger and stronger than most women making self-defence difficult and unlikely to be successful for women.

This is why women do not want men in their intimate spaces. Decent men know and respect this. Predatory men and misogynistic men do not.

You can look up the research on this, and unfortunately there are some studies showing higher rates of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to opposite sex relationships.

I have. A fair amount of the research seems to be US with some survey work in the UK.

I'd be better informed I you could signpost to some UK figures that have good methodology to support them (I had a quick look at some charities/organisations and they reported comparable levels of IPV for lesbian v heterosexual relationships but they were non-probabilistic surveys).

Lesbians also assault each other is the same thing as well female people commit domestic violence too/girls bully each other.

It isn't a reason to throw away all safeguarding and boundaries say well if you're at risk of possible assault from another female homosexual we might as well throw you open to risk from male people too and just give up caring.

98% of sexual offences are committed by people who are biologically male. Over 80% of victims of sexual offences are female.

And this still does nothing about the female people excluded from mixed sex provision because of faith, culture, disability including autism and trauma, and freedom of belief. Even if every single person in the situation was absolutely verified as not going to commit an assault on anyone else, those female people are still going to be left without any provision so that people born male can access it.

Women can and do assault and abuse other women, emotionally, psychologically, physically and sexually.

You can look up the research on this, and unfortunately there are some studies showing higher rates of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to opposite sex relationships.

I just don't think that's a realistic solution that is going to end in female people having access to female only services and ending their exclusion and harms any time soon.

*in essence, those who do not believe in binary sex are going to need to respect that some people do, and need services accordingly

No, people who do not believe in binary sex are going to have to realise that they are wrong. It's not a matter of belief, but fact. Binary sex is a fact, not an opinion, its not something you believe in or not.

And I'm glad you felt the same way about the showers and loos because I started wondering if I was being paranoid

And that's the problem with this movement. Its demanding that women ignore their instincts and discomfort. And that puts women at risk. As well as giving them the measure that their role in life is to centre others and never themselves.

If it's a case of either or, and one side has to lose and go without provision, then it probably will be female people who lose, as female people are already, radically losing because in mixed sex situations males always have louder voices, more power, more influence. It's why mixed sex does not work for female people. Plus, it is very difficult to justify why, if female people are prepared to tolerate some mixed sex provision for women if female only provision is provided too, and respected - that those wishing mixed sex women's provision will not extend that respect and tolerance to others as well as require it. Politically that's not a great look, it's not a sustainable position.

And frankly I'd rather support everyone having needs met than see a large number of female people end up without anything at all, not even allowed to state their problem. Because that's where we are right now.

I find the FB comment by the Trans-woman about "looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women" particularly troubling. Why single out that aspect of the weekend?

If I were a Trans-person (I'm not), my anticipation would be based on spending time generally with liberal minded people (of any gender) who were likely to share my viewpoints and are friendly kindred spirits. I don't think I'd immediately hone in on a single aspect that involved nakedness. But maybe that's just me.

I'm sick of the lies and pretence that women are being forced into. We are meant to pretend that all males who identify as women are nice and genuine and don't at all have motivations of power or control or any sexual motivations.

Women only spaces were a space to get rid of all that shit and now we are not only told to accept it but to PRETEND IT IS NOT HAPPENING.

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual

Nonsense. Accommodation is divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the overwhelming majority of assaults upon women are carried out by men

This!