Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

There’s a question I’ve begun to ask more frequently in various places. What decent man would insist he must have access to women’s spaces as it became more and more clear that his presence would cause distress to some of the women who had previously used that space?

I believe the answer is none,

Poisoned chalice is a perfect summary.

There is a clearly understood code of how to behave.

Which I doubt includes looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

Can we guess what would happen if an organisation/ company were to offer mixed sex holidays which include trans and non binary , and other holidays for female bodied people only. I would really hope they could work well for everybody, but separately. I imagine that certain people would not be happy with that solution. As a lesbian I find it hugely offensive that there is a suggestion that women are more at risk from lesbians than from men and transwomen. I acknowledge that some DV can be committed by lesbians but this does not mean women are at risk from other women in the type of situation described. Women’s holidays we used to go on were fantastic in that there would be no chance of encountering males of any identity on them. It’s a poisoned chalice now if the companies are obscuring the truth

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/may/17/cross-dressing-men-celebrated-barbican-uk-london-photography-exhibition-casa-susanna

They zero in on these events as do "non binary" female people, to ensure that they are "inclusive".

I would not want to go on a lesbian camping trip which included trans.

I do have some sympathy with the organist though, a friend attempted to arrange a small female only festival, but couldn’t get beyond early stages as TRAs were all over it and she felt it was safer to not bother.

The single sex dorms at the Youth hostelling association (YHA) has now been relabelled to single gender dorms.

I wonder how Diva will get on with its new holidays for trans and cross dressing people (which are also open to their family and friends).

It doesn't take a genius to suspect that any domestic violence research which suggests that lesbian women commit more domestic violence than men is (at best) doing something like counting criticising or nagging as domestic violence alongside serious physical attacks.
Just like the research which suggests that loads of men suffer domestic violence from women.
If you ask about physical violence only, you'll get a very different outcome.
But of course the TRAs know that.

Shedbuilder
I agree, and I think domestic violence in lesbian relationships doesn't get enough light (or funding).
But the one survey that crops up over and over again stating women were more likely to suffer domestic violence in a relationship with a woman than in a relationship with a man is misleading so I get a bit "broken record" with it.

And suggesting that lesbians are more likely to attack other women in the showers than men are is just madness.

Loads of domestic violence surveys are suspect, there are surveys that show men are as likely to be victims as women in straight relationships (but when you control for defensive violence, frequency and severity of violence etc etc you see the true story). MRAs love to quote these kinds of things.

Like when mothers are more likely to abuse children than fathers, and then you control for the fact mothers spend vastly more time with their children and the abuse includes single spanking or neglect and the abuse by fathers is more violent and more sexually violent...

That's why I'm glad there are posters here with the experience in statistics to explain things. Unfortunately soundbites are hard to defeat.

The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men

even if that is true, which it isn't, we're not talking about DV in intimate relationships. Show us the stats that prove that women are more at risk from unknown lesbians than they are from unknown men. Don't hold your breath while looking though.....

I've stayed in large mixed-sex dorms in Alpine mountain hostels and that's been fine (apart from the snoring). There is a clearly understood code of how to behave.

However, I would be really unhappy about discovering I was sharing a 2 or 3 bed hotel room with a transwoman - not least as the sort of transwoman who joins a woman/lesbian only holiday has already demonstrated a total lack of concern about women's boundaries.

In my backpacking days I sometimes stayed in mixed sex dorms at hostels; but they were always clear about the status at the time of booking and the Rough Guide/Lonely Planet always had this info.

It's the insidiousness of not openly declaring that a situation is mixed sex and allowing people to then make an informed decision (ie that they might feel safer with strange males than with those awful predatory lezzers) that really rankles.

Who benefits from women being made to feel confused and uncomfortable about blurred boundaries with men?

The whole trying to rubbish female people not wanting to share hot tubs and rooms with male strangers on the grounds that they're more likely to be beaten up by other females...?

Well stepping away from that rather homophobic generalisation.....

There are many reasons why female people may choose not to share a hot tub or a room with a male stranger, regardless of how that male person chooses to define themselves.

There are many protected characteristics that mean that female people cannot share a hot tub or a room or an activity or a resource at all where a male stranger or male strangers are present.

The point of the OP is: female people booking on to this need to know that there will be male strangers present, rather than turn up and discover this has been concealed from them, as some female people will be distressed and the experience will not be what they had expected or can enjoy, while others will just plain have to turn around and leave, at great inconvenience and loss of money. There's a duty of clear selling, trades description, people are entitled to a fair and honest view of what is actually being sold.

It's also a point that to include male people into women only activities, accommodation and resources excludes some women. From women only provisions. Which kind of messes up the whole 'inclusion' idea, and makes it as a woman's provision a bit of a #fail. And rather sexist, as male people's needs are being met, but not all female people's needs.

This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men
And the evidence you have referred to does not show this AT ALL. For the reasons I have given. You really need to do some work to understand how to interpret research before making claims on what research says.

It's not really a straw man in this instance though is it? The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men. People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

It is absolutely a straw man as you are comparing intimate partner violence to violence from strangers. I am genuninely at a loss to understand why you can't see that those situations are not comparable. Unless you feel the need to conflate them to support an ideological argument? Which is just dishonest.

The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men.

People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

This is massively offensive but I'm sure that was the intent.

I think the point is that “no room sharing with strangers” might be a good boundary.

There are quite a few studies in this area now Not really, most weight is given to one study that suggests homosexual relationships are more violent than straight ones.
Whereas as I've explained, many of the women studied had suffered domestic violence from a previous male partner.
I think the 22% statistic is closer to the truth - it absolutely does happen, but the notion that lesbians are more violent than straight men in the home doesn't pan out in reality.
And although this is a total derail, I'm going to repeat the fact that lesbians are not a threat to other women in shared accommodation scenarios, and to suggest so is homophobia.

quite a few studies in this area now
I know people are ideologically motivated to discredit them on these boards

There are quite a few studies in several areas. That doesn't make them good, useful, or informative. If anything, it leads to profound misunderstandings when wider audiences don't understand the methodologies that underpin systematic reviews, meta-analysis, pooled analysis and narrative reviews. That is before considerations such as GRADE (the evaluation of quality of evidence) come into play or the RoB (risk of bias - relating to study design etc.).

This has nothing to do with ideology but more, perhaps, to do with the fact that several of the people in this conversation have some experience of evaluating trial/study/survey design and analysis plus the tools for assessing the quality of evidence.

Also we aren't even talking about domestic violence in this situation.
We're talking about the likelihood of being at risk from another woman in a shared accommodation setting, and PP have suggested that risk is higher if the other woman is a lesbian. There is nothing to suggest this is the case. No stats on this at all.
I seem to remember transmen committed violent crime at a higher rate than other women (in the survey that showed trans women retained male offending patterns) but without controlling for roid rage I'm not sure that information is of much use.

Many journals signed up to SAGER guidelines (Sex and Gender Equity in Research) but all too often authors are allowed not to disaggregate data by sex. All too often sex and gender are used interchangeably instead of distinguished.

And I've reviewed/read papers making remarkable pronouncements where the authors have announced that they accepted self-ID as part of the recruitment. They then proceed to report findings that can not be validated because of the trial design or methodology that they selected.