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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender fighter wins debut after choking out opponent in second round

160 replies

OvaHere · 11/09/2021 12:44

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/mma/transgender-fighter-wins-mma-debut-24960681

Picture pretty much says it all. Horrifying that this is allowed.

Just last week an inquest concluded into the tragic death of a female MMA fighter whose family felt the fight was mismatched and this was an actual female opponent.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9962521/Female-kickboxer-26-died-blow-head-Fast-Furious-fight.html

Allowing males to compete in the female category makes an already dangerous sport so much more dangerous.

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/09/2021 12:11

@Appalonia

There a a tweet saying she was literally asking for it...
Also seen:

If you believe trans women can only compete in men's sports, then that means trans men have to compete in women's sports. Because "biological sex"

Keep the argument consistent is all I'm saying.

There is consistency. Transmen do not get to compete in the women's category because they take testosterone as part of the transition and that is classed as a banned substance. If they start early enough (as is the goal for some activists), they do not experience a female puberty.

And this is one of many reasons that it's so difficult to have a useful discussion in public (as above).

Transgender fighter wins debut after choking out opponent in second round
Appalonia · 12/09/2021 12:02

There a a tweet saying she was literally asking for it...

Transgender fighter wins debut after choking out opponent in second round
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 12/09/2021 12:01

I suppose there's always been a large amount of ignorance on fairly basic stuff - you can't get pregnant standing up/naming body parts/superstition type of thing.

Yes and the same people who are so ignorant about biology expect women to know they are 'cervix-havers' and therefore should know to get a smear!

ArabellaScott · 12/09/2021 11:38

I suppose there's always been a large amount of ignorance on fairly basic stuff - you can't get pregnant standing up/naming body parts/superstition type of thing.

But some of the nonsense I see around at the moment seems to have successfully jumped the shark wrt even the most banal, obvious truths. Truths so blindingly obvious that nobody has ever even thought to do 'research' on them.

'Only females get pregnant' for example, is something that is so fundamental and unarguable that I doubt anyone has ever wasted time on doing a study to ascertain what proportion of pregnant people were female.

Just waiting for someone to post the study to disprove that, now.

I mean, please don't.

But I wouldn't be altogether surprised.

Hmm
MondayYogurt · 12/09/2021 11:36

Realistically we will need to see several brain damaged, spine damaged, or dead women before this is questioned. The first casualty will be a "cis women do this to opponents too". The second casualty will be a "stop panicking, transphobes" and "this isn't a pattern". The third casualty will be a "fighting is dangerous duh". The fourth casualty will be a "maybe they should wear helmets or something". The fifth casualty the family will speak up and be branded transphobic. The sixth casualty sponsors might start to worry it's not the image they want to project. The seventh casualty some mainstream think-pieces will mention live action snuff films. And hopefully by the twentieth+ casualty women fighters will be so afraid they'll avoid any trans fighting.
The vast majority of people promoting this have never taken a fist to the jaw of any kind. They've grown up watching Buffy and Black Widow and genuinely think women can just train and beat men.
They have no answers for why transmen don't win male sports.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/09/2021 11:27

@KittenKong

Women are just smaller men... But my sister could beat my granddad... Physical strength and the benefits of male puberty just disappear... Women are exactly the same as men... I hope you don’t teach your daughters that they aren’t as strong as men... You go Queen!

Seriously - are people on twitter pig ignorant or just taking the Mickey?

This neatly outlines some of the problems involved both here and so many other areas that touch on this contentious issue.

Some people don't know what they don't know.
Some don't care to know what they don't know.

How is there ever going to be a decent discussion in the public space when the main discussants (with the power of a cyber mob behind them) don't care to do the most cursory research about their own assertions. This is Frankfurt's On Bullshit in action.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

I'm bearing in mind the number of people who don't know where their major organs are, don't understand male/female reproductive tracts and orifices etc.

The recent Whole Genomic Screening exercise that involved the public incorporated some superb education sessions with leading experts. The people who participated enjoyed it enormously and were very excited by the science as well as learning more about the ethical issues that are associated with it.

That was a lot of well-crafted, well-facilitated education for which people received an honorarium (I think).

I don't know what we need for a reasonable level of knowledge in the area of sex based differences to convince people that there are some and women aren't being lazy when they can't lift some weights or create as much power for some manoeuvres.

Our present state of general ignorance is helping no-one.

alkanet · 12/09/2021 11:16

Sums it up for me.

ArabellaScott · 12/09/2021 11:13

The thing is that one doesn't even need scientific evidence to know that males are stronger than females.

Look around you! Watch the first minute of this film starring the fighter involved. Note the shape and size of the upper body. Use your brain.

(later some extreme violence in this film, btw, content warning. The first minute is not violent).

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 12/09/2021 11:06

@Sophoclesthefox

Flowers to female and arabella.

Of course we won’t see any of the cheerleaders on this thread. They couldn’t even bring themselves to defend Hubbard at the Olympics, never mind this. Because they know it’s wrong. They know.

But they’re in a philosophical bind, because the worldview demands that you never, ever, ever let there be the slightest deviation from the belief that being a woman is a state of mind and not a physical reality, and any and all risk to women from that position is acceptable collateral damage.

Let’s have a think about what we’re likely to see when a male bodied person and a woman are pitted against each other.

Male upper bodies have approximately 75% more muscle mass and 90% more strength than female bodies. A recent study found that male punch power was 162% greater than female (www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm).

Males have more fast twitch muscle fibres than females, and this difference is made more pronounced the more you train, as males tend to develop more fast twitch muscles when strength training, where females develop a mix of fast and slow twitch. Fast twitch fibres give you speed and explosive power, which means you react quicker, and create more power from the greater speed.

Male bones are stronger and longer than female bones, which means a longer reach, a sturdier structure and a bigger and more solid head. A woman on her thirties will already be starting to lose bone mass. This means a greater injury risk to female bodies.

None of these factors are affected by someone’s gender identity. They apply exactly to a transwoman as they do to a man. If you want to show me how that’s not true, you will need to bring evidence, and that evidence will have to disprove millennia of human development, thousands of years of human knowledge, and decades of scientific research, so it’s going to have to be hot fucking stuff.

It is dangerous, delusional, unscientific fantasy to suppose that pitting women against this fighter is fair, safe or desirable.

It has to stop.

Agree, totally agree.

The willful refusal to listen to any robust scientific knowledge is highly disturbing. It reminds me of the suffragettes fight. Men were using pseudo-scientific arguments there about women's mental inferiority. They are now using pseudo-scientific arguments (i.e. focusing only on testosterone levels) to argue that women and transwomen are physically the same. Yet so many people don't want to see that this is just modern female oppression.

One of the sillier responses on that twitter feed was suggesting that you 'change sex' when you make your external and internal body like the opposite sex. But there is no attempt to really look at whether you have changed your body in the factors you list here and any other proven to be the real differences between male and female bodies. If we could properly achieve that, then I'd support transwomen in women's sports. But we can't. Maybe we never will.

KittenKong · 12/09/2021 10:35

I assume it is young men who have never laid hands (in any way) on a woman...

ArabellaScott · 12/09/2021 10:33

Indeed there are stupid people on Twitter right now arguing that males are not stronger than females.

Where do you even start with arguments like this?

twitter.com/GynBag/status/1436753766468837380

KittenKong · 12/09/2021 10:32

There is another close up image - looks like it’s been taken from above - and it is just horrific. I feel like I am seeing a violent attack. In the street this would be a crime.

Roguehair · 12/09/2021 10:26

Flowers to the survivors of DV on this thread.

Roguehair · 12/09/2021 10:26

That photo of a male choking a female is so disturbing. Combined with the male fighter saying “ we’re going to have to work out way into those spaces and make it happen” just sounds like a male abuser terrorising his female victim. How the hell is this being allowed in 2021?

KittenKong · 12/09/2021 10:23

Oh and how old are they? Let’s not forget the age at which some people can continue to compete in their new categories Vs their competitors.

I’m telling you - a few year from now it will be ‘how did we allow this?’. Sadly it will be after fatalities.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/09/2021 10:20

[quote OvaHere]Five time MMA world champion is not impressed. Good on him for speaking up.

twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1436746950557061121[/quote]
Yes, they are, aren't they.

Displaying complete ignorance about muscle composition, how muscle is formed etc., ligaments, bones, but absolutely convinced they're correct and progressive.

Even posting gotcha photo panels and saying - which of these women has transitioned (I paraphrase). I looked and thought 'none but surely they wouldn't pose a dishonest test'- reader, they had, none of them were.

KittenKong · 12/09/2021 10:06

Women are just smaller men...
But my sister could beat my granddad...
Physical strength and the benefits of male puberty just disappear...
Women are exactly the same as men...
I hope you don’t teach your daughters that they aren’t as strong as men...
You go Queen!

Seriously - are people on twitter pig ignorant or just taking the Mickey?

OvaHere · 12/09/2021 10:06

@EsmaCannonball

Science is one of my weaker areas but it amazes me how many supposedly educated people are scientifically illiterate on this, claiming that male advantage is cancelled out if a man is shorter, lighter or older. I actually don't think this is stupidity or ignorance. Most of these people know that they are lying but they just don't care, as long as the lie helps with their objective. It's part of the Trumpian post-truth world.
You're probably right. Lying as a virtue.
OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 12/09/2021 10:05

@timeisnotaline

All of the comments on that guys Twitter are totally for this fight Shock
...with them all saying how this is an example of HRT working to reduce muscle mass and therefore it's fair.

Some saying Celine consented and doesn't need defending, though I'd rather hear that from Celine and only if that is truly freely spoken and agreed, as in, not coerced.

I'd also like to hear from the federation and the referee, and the insurance companies. Twitter always seems to forget there is paperwork.

Remind me, how much did McG win?

EsmaCannonball · 12/09/2021 09:56

Science is one of my weaker areas but it amazes me how many supposedly educated people are scientifically illiterate on this, claiming that male advantage is cancelled out if a man is shorter, lighter or older. I actually don't think this is stupidity or ignorance. Most of these people know that they are lying but they just don't care, as long as the lie helps with their objective. It's part of the Trumpian post-truth world.

OvaHere · 12/09/2021 09:29

@timeisnotaline

All of the comments on that guys Twitter are totally for this fight Shock
Unfortunately there's a lot of very stupid people on Twitter who don't understand that men are so much stronger than women even if that man isn't as muscular as he was a few years ago. All the variances between male and female cannot be made fair and equal by anything.

Also there's a lot of people (mostly men but not all) on Twitter who get a kick out of this happening to women.

OP posts:
KohlaParasanda · 12/09/2021 09:27

[quote OvaHere]Five time MMA world champion is not impressed. Good on him for speaking up.

twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1436746950557061121[/quote]
Good. We need men to protest loudly about the inclusion of males in women's sports. This is not a fight women can win by ourselves, not because we aren't brave or motivated but because there are too many forces pushing against us.

timeisnotaline · 12/09/2021 09:21

All of the comments on that guys Twitter are totally for this fight Shock

OvaHere · 12/09/2021 08:39

Five time MMA world champion is not impressed. Good on him for speaking up.

twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1436746950557061121

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 12/09/2021 06:44

Flowers to female and arabella.

Of course we won’t see any of the cheerleaders on this thread. They couldn’t even bring themselves to defend Hubbard at the Olympics, never mind this. Because they know it’s wrong. They know.

But they’re in a philosophical bind, because the worldview demands that you never, ever, ever let there be the slightest deviation from the belief that being a woman is a state of mind and not a physical reality, and any and all risk to women from that position is acceptable collateral damage.

Let’s have a think about what we’re likely to see when a male bodied person and a woman are pitted against each other.

Male upper bodies have approximately 75% more muscle mass and 90% more strength than female bodies. A recent study found that male punch power was 162% greater than female (www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm).

Males have more fast twitch muscle fibres than females, and this difference is made more pronounced the more you train, as males tend to develop more fast twitch muscles when strength training, where females develop a mix of fast and slow twitch. Fast twitch fibres give you speed and explosive power, which means you react quicker, and create more power from the greater speed.

Male bones are stronger and longer than female bones, which means a longer reach, a sturdier structure and a bigger and more solid head. A woman on her thirties will already be starting to lose bone mass. This means a greater injury risk to female bodies.

None of these factors are affected by someone’s gender identity. They apply exactly to a transwoman as they do to a man. If you want to show me how that’s not true, you will need to bring evidence, and that evidence will have to disprove millennia of human development, thousands of years of human knowledge, and decades of scientific research, so it’s going to have to be hot fucking stuff.

It is dangerous, delusional, unscientific fantasy to suppose that pitting women against this fighter is fair, safe or desirable.

It has to stop.