Rosie Duffield thank you

Suspect this is just a poster coming for a daily plop to keep the thread derailed. I doubt there will be further engagement until the thread re-establishes itself, at which point we can expect another plop-by post.

If they genuinely wanted to talk about these issues they would start a thread for them.

that trans women should not use women's toilets (walking back the EA2010)

There is nothing in the EA2010 enshrining a legal right for this group of males to use female spaces such as toilets and changing rooms. The EA2010 deals with discrimination/harassment on the grounds of gender reassignment, ie being refused service, a job etc.

There are clear exemptions possible for all males to be excluded from such spaces as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. As it is recognised that such things are necessary. So no, no "walking back" needed. Please inform yourself better about the law.

It is also not "a courtesy" that we "allow them" to use the women's. It's the law.

No it isn't.

It is also not "a courtesy" that we "allow them" to use the women's. It's the law.
It is not the bloody law, and if you're confused on / refuse to accept this very fundamental fact I think we can safely assume the rest of your interminable arguments are complete bollocks too.

the notion that self-ID would somehow make life more dangerous for women and that is just wrong

Do you think that males fighting women is tickety-boo? Males in women's prisons? Males in refuges where women then cannot access the single sex service they desperately need? That is where self ID takes us. It is more dangerous for women. That is entirely the point we are all here, Catherina.

They can say it all they like. It's not true. Transwoman are male. It's not personal biology, it's actual reality.

And would we need a fourth space for trans men?

Why would a fourth space be needed? A third space would be available for anyone who wanted to use it. There would be single sex toilets and also a mixed gender toilet.

Has anyone answered my question how we would police trans people's use of toilets? Who would check and how?

People can tell what sex people are. It's an evolutionary trait. Women's politeness (and fear of causing a fuss/being threatened) has been mistaken for acceptance of a situation.

Regarding prisons: I am always really disappointed when "safety in prisons" is reduced to "no trans women", rather than to go much further and demand prison reform and far reaching social reforms to ensure the population in prisons drops. I'd like to see safe prisons for all. Violent criminals, independently from sex or gender, should not get the chance to hurt other prisoners.

Well yes. But you seem to be overlooking a specific problem of convicted sex offenders being placed in a place where they can rape women with impunity. It isn't a 'it'll never happen'. It is happening and is being condoned by the MOJ. It's state sanctioned punative rape.

she is propagating the notion that self-ID would somehow make life more dangerous for women and that is just wrong. It would just make life a wee bit easier for trans folk.

Self ID will make it more dangerous for women as predators will take advantage of the loopholes of self ID. Again, it is happening. Have you commented on the Wi Spa incident as you have been requested to repeatedly?

Have you answered @sophoclesthefox yet?

It is also not "a courtesy" that we "allow them" to use the women's. It's the law.

No. People with a GRC must be treated as their acquired sex unless in a situation where this doesn’t apply e.g. sport. This is in the GRA 2004.

However most trans people don’t have a GRC. You can’t discriminate against somebody because they have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, but it doesn’t follow that somebody without a GRC is suffering discrimination because they are treated as their legal sex. Similarly a bus company is not discriminating against me on the basis of sex if they legally discriminate on the basis of age and don’t allowed me to pay a child fare.

There is no particular law about toilets. There are health and safety regulations for workplace toilets.

I am always really disappointed when "safety in prisons" is reduced to "no trans women", rather than to go much further and demand prison reform

As you must know, the concern is about men in prisons. If you want to make an argument that trans women aren’t men, you will need to explain where the line is drawn and why, otherwise you are just arguing for unisex prisons. If you think unisex prisons are a good idea make an argument on that basis.

I can see, she is propagating the notion that self-ID would somehow make life more dangerous for women and that is just wrong. It would just make life a wee bit easier for trans folk.

No you are wrong, unless you can explain why trans women are women and who is excluded from that definition. Otherwise women are very definitely harmed because the term ‘woman’ becomes meaningless in law and policy.

I really don’t understand why you haven’t yet grasped the fact that you can’t protect the rights of a group you can’t define, whether that group is trans people or women. This leads me to believe that your concern is less about rights and more about validation, regardless of who that affects.

And what about DV shelters? Female prisons?

Duffield: as far as I can see, she is propagating the notion that self-ID would somehow make life more dangerous for women and that is just wrong. It would just make life a wee bit easier for trans folk.

It makes it impossible to define women, as such it makes it impossible to count crimes against women, so ultimately you would have no way of knowing what the effects on women would be.

Thankfully we have people like Duffield speaking out against this.

I have just recently found a new amazing pool, lovely 50m lanes. The shower facilities are to rows of back to back showers, with the last one in each row behind a screen. There are communal changing areas and cubicles. Options for what every women/girl feels comfortable with ...

sorry for the post and run - I was pretty tied up at work.

to those who say they don't "self-ID", they are following their personal biology. Trans women would say the same thing. It is also not "a courtesy" that we "allow them" to use the women's. It's the law.

Why don't we go for "third spaces"? If we have the money for that, we can also create nice toilets with cubicles and privacy for all, or? Also: the idea that trans women should not use women's toilets (walking back the EA2010) would likely lead to more problems for women who don't clock as "female". And would we need a fourth space for trans men?
Has anyone answered my question how we would police trans people's use of toilets? Who would check and how?

As for "social contracts" - I have used the men's when the women's was oversubscribed

Regarding prisons: I am always really disappointed when "safety in prisons" is reduced to "no trans women", rather than to go much further and demand prison reform and far reaching social reforms to ensure the population in prisons drops. I'd like to see safe prisons for all. Violent criminals, independently from sex or gender, should not get the chance to hurt other prisoners.

But to take it back to Duffield: as far as I can see, she is propagating the notion that self-ID would somehow make life more dangerous for women and that is just wrong. It would just make life a wee bit easier for trans folk.

Thank you Rosie. What a brave woman.

I’m looking forward to reading Keir Starmer’s message of support. (Not really obviously- he could learn a thing or two about courage from her)

Thanks Rosie, you inspire other women to speak out too.

We see the strength and good in you.

[quote Whatthechicken]@CatherinaJTV but we don’t self -ID, the majority of us go to the toilet that represents our biological reality because we know that if we go to the other one we will make others feel uncomfortable. For example, should there be a queue at the men’s, my husband would not use the women’s toilets, he would know that he would make women feel uncomfortable and leave himself wide open to untrue allegations. I really do understand why trans women may feel uncomfortable using the toilet that is not aligned to their gender, but why do they not understand that women may feel uncomfortable with others not aligned to their sex using their toilets? Why are third spaces not acceptable? Why do women have to be the ones who feel uncomfortable and not safe. People do not wear a sign saying ‘I am not a threat’, women generally know that male bodied people ‘could’ pose a threat, we just don’t know who they are. Because of their biology, it is always wise to be on our guard. Safe guarding is for everyone, nobody should get a free pass.[/quote]
Totally agree - you've expressed this very well.

I also think Rosie Duffield is brave, principled and inspiring. The unhinged hatred towards her whipped up by mostly male members of the Labour Party currently parallels that directed towards JKR.

I love Rosie Duffield

And I am sorry that this thread has become a discussion about toilets. Bloody hell 🤬

Thank you very much, Rosie. You have enormous integrity and are to be admired. I am sorry for what you have experienced.

I wish all politicians were like you, I really do. Wishing you a restful weekend. I hope you read these messages of support.

and that is legal, according to the EA2010

There's nothing about it in the EA2010, it's not a positive right enshrined in law for this group of males to use female toilets. The sex based exemption makes it possible to exclude all males legally if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. And sometimes women's privacy and dignity is the aim.

Thank you, Rosie Duffield. Thank you.

Thank you for your courage, Rosie. The Labour Party has no idea how downright foolish it looks.

(and just about the very off-topic toilet stuff and social conventions, I watch The Pioneer Woman cookery programme and it put me in mind of how in one episode she'd had a building refurbished for a cafe or something, anyway she took her husband to see the lovely, shiny new women's toilets before they opened and as he walked towards them, just before he got to the doors, he was suddenly walking the opposite way. Like repelling magnetic poles, the change of direction was that sudden and strong, a bodily reaction as though his feet moved him away before his brain caught up that he was trying to go somewhere he wasn't allowed. Anyway, he ended up hovering in the doorway admiring the new toilets with a sheepish, awkward and slightly queasy smile on his face. Men know instinctively women's toilets aren't for them which is why it's so easy to categorise the very few who do try to get access)

👏👏👏Rosie👏👏👏

#istandwithrosieduffield

Sadly, I did not get an answer. I am starting to lose hope!