Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Judith Butler interview

414 replies

MotherofPearl · 07/09/2021 12:27

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/07/judith-butler-interview-gender?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

Apologies if this has already been posted. I found this troubling to read. Am I misreading this or is Butler saying that GC feminism is fascist?

OP posts:
irresistibleoverwhelm · 08/09/2021 12:45

@littlbrowndog

I like this from guardian
You see I’m an academic and I do understand this - it just is very overburdened writing, but it has a meaning. Basically what she is saying is:

Althusserian Marxists understood the relationships of capitalism and society to be static and fixed, but when we started thinking about how they might also change over time, we gained new ways of understanding how power actively works to cement itself into social structures.

The original passage is unwieldy, but it makes sense if you’re someone working in the field and there isn’t much that’s controversial about it - it’s just not written for a lay audience but a technical audience. It’s a shame, because there is plenty of nonsensical guff in her work elsewhere - that passage might be obscure but this one is actually not nonsense 😂

littlbrowndog · 08/09/2021 12:27

I like this from guardian

Judith Butler interview
LobsterNapkin · 08/09/2021 12:25

I wonder where she thinks babies come from?

I find this quite funny. As I understand it, in her view it's kind of random that societies have chosen to create the idea of two sexes, by creating the categories in a certain way.

So perhaps at one time there were all kinds of societies who chose different kinds of categories, more of them or none or maybe based around things like the shape of your knees.

Of course, they all died out.

LobsterNapkin · 08/09/2021 12:22

The retraction is more of a problem because it' was in fact published and they didn't make the reason for removing it clear. So far as it goes interviews often are much longer than the parts that are printed and they can be significantly reduced to fit in the space allocated. What to include can be based on all kinds of considerations including what is topical, what is thematic, etc.

MonsignorMirth · 08/09/2021 12:15

The anti-gender ideology movement, a global movement, insists that sex is biological and real

I do wonder how many people will read that and question why this is bad?
How many times have we had posters on here saying "no-one is saying there's such thing as biological sex".

MotherofPearl · 08/09/2021 11:47

I've learnt a lot from reading the posts on this thread - certainly much more than I've ever learnt from JB.

OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 08/09/2021 11:44

@Franca123

This is an open case in California. Surely newspapers shouldn't be commenting on it in this manner?
The US doesn't have prejudice rules - I remember with the OJ Simpson case, commentators speculated quite freely about his innocence or guilt both before and during the trial. It feels very strange to those of us in the UK.

I don't think there were any legal issues with what was in the article - no one was named, so there wasn't even a libel issue.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/09/2021 11:42

I really think they should reinstate the missing question and answer. From what I can see no-one is happy with the redaction, TRAs or feminists.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/09/2021 11:38

responsibility = responsibilise

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/09/2021 11:38

but also by neoliberals in France and elsewhere who need the normative family to absorb the decimation of social welfare

Just coming back to this ...

This is a really weird statement. I know that LB's feminism rests on the back of Anglophone interpretations of some elements of French feminism, but why privilege France?

And surely GC feminists are critiquing the nuclear family in terms of gender roles? This is what being GC is all about.

I agree that neoliberals or the new right want to entrench the traditional family to responsibility them to provide for family members, thus abrogating the welfare state of this responsibility, but there is no correlation between GC feminism and neoliberalism at all.

NeoLIBERALISM is a form of LIBERALISM and is allied with our LF friends and their choice-based, individualised way of seeing the world. Choose a gender, choose a job, choose to be rich, choose to be poor, choose sex work, choose porn - this is liberal/neoliberal, not GC!

Franca123 · 08/09/2021 11:22

It's not a newspaper anymore

NecessaryScene · 08/09/2021 11:16

I think they've pulled the whole series.

Maybe the reaction to this first piece got the lawyers' attention, and they've realised there might be even more issues in the upcoming stuff... Enough to put the whole thing on ice?

Would make sense if they're all commissioned from people like this one.

Floisme · 08/09/2021 11:15

I don't know why they bothered censoring themselves - I doubt whether even Butler's fans made it much beyond the first couple of paragraphs.
The Guardian needs to be careful: printing an outrageous allegation is one thing but once you start looking incompetent, you're in trouble.

Franca123 · 08/09/2021 11:10

But why a broken link? I think they've pulled them down but not removed that link by mistake. I think they've pulled the whole series.

SimonedeBeauvoirscat · 08/09/2021 11:06

Re: the question about why this interviewer was chosen … I note that the interview contains a promo box for a series on ‘gender now’ (described as ‘a series exploring transgender life, identity and politics today’) but the click-through link doesn’t work. That suggests this is the first in a series - and I’m guessing the Guardian deliberately sought ‘diverse’ voices to report it. That’s just a guess though.

BraveBananaBadge · 08/09/2021 11:01

@RoyalCorgi

It seems that some within feminist movements are becoming sympathetic to these far-right campaigns. This year’s furore around Wi Spa in Los Angeles saw an online outrage by transphobes followed by bloody protests organized by the Proud Boys. Can we expect this alliance to continue?

A professional journalist (by which I mean both someone who is trained in journalism and someone who has some standards of professional integrity) would never have asked a question like that. Why the Guardian commissioned this person, rather than one of their own staffers or a respected freelance, to conduct the interview is another question that needs answering.

YY Corgi, this too. From their tweets, having to answer to any of this is just a pain in their arse and they certainly don't strike me as any kind of professional. The question was a disgrace and how it made it into print is beyond belief.
Franca123 · 08/09/2021 11:00

This is an open case in California. Surely newspapers shouldn't be commenting on it in this manner?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/09/2021 10:59

I'd so love to watch her being interviewed by John Cleese.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/09/2021 10:58

both of the universities I attended, undergrad and postgrad, I only had one tutor who was married with children and had tutors who didn't even know how to use everyday household items. I had one tutor who told me, when I said that there wasn't a single woman on the reading list he had just given us, "well, Michel Foucault was gay." I'm glad to hear your experience is different and I'm glad it's changing, but Butler is an academic of the Old School

Silly old us. We can't even use can-openers! :)

Really, I think your experience was terribly unusual. I was at university before JB was famous and I can assure you that none of what you write was true even then for my experience across a range of universities. Yes, there is privilege and obviously, there are pockets of this, but this is not sector-wide. And even if we are (gasp) unmarried and (double-gasp) don't have children, it does not mean that we don't have a grip on the real world.

RoyalCorgi · 08/09/2021 10:56

It seems that some within feminist movements are becoming sympathetic to these far-right campaigns. This year’s furore around Wi Spa in Los Angeles saw an online outrage by transphobes followed by bloody protests organized by the Proud Boys. Can we expect this alliance to continue?

A professional journalist (by which I mean both someone who is trained in journalism and someone who has some standards of professional integrity) would never have asked a question like that. Why the Guardian commissioned this person, rather than one of their own staffers or a respected freelance, to conduct the interview is another question that needs answering.

BraveBananaBadge · 08/09/2021 10:55

That has been the point I've been trying to make, transdimensional. This is a Q&A style interview quoting Butler verbatim.

If somehow the journalist has falsified this, they're in the shit. Otherwise JB can't say she didn't say this - there'll be proof otherwise. JB is also, I assume, in no position to demand anything she actually said be taken out. Well, she could try. But any decent editor would refuse and stand by their reporting. If an editor is cowed enough to do this on request then once the floodgates are open on that, where does it end?

The Guardian must explain its workings here at once. It's not even a matter of the issue at hand, although that's sus enough. How could anyone believe a thing they report again after this?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/09/2021 10:52

The question definitely shows the interviewer's own views and biases, but I think we have to give Butler enough credit that she wouldn't have gone on an extended rant about feminists and fascism unless that was her actual view and wasn't predicated solely on the assumptions in the interviewer's question

Oh absolutely! I wasn't suggesting so much that JB was led or duped by the question as the whole interview was an echo chamber.

FrancescaContini · 08/09/2021 10:46

@FloralBunting

Ok, so this is Joel Osteen. This is a ritual he and many other Word Faith teachers have at the beginning of their meetings. What you need to grasp is that the undergirding belief is that Speaking words gives them power to change physical reality. Thinking isn't quite enough, you have to say it out loud. By doing so, and not wavering on saying it, eventually, what you are saying will be real.

The idea is that we are in 'god's image' and as god created the world by speaking it into existence, so we have that power too.

I've seen a few of them follow their logic in a circle that says that if god said black was white, it would be true, because whatever god says happens.

So they will pore over the bible, find a verse that seems to align with what they want, and say it out loud as a personal affirmation/incantation and believe strongly, and it will come to pass.

Obviously, the genesis of the pomo philosophy and this sort of fringe religious nuttery are very different, but when you look at how the two perspectives operate, wrt being convinced that material reality isn't fixed and is malleable with the use of words, where everything is predicated solely on self-belief, I think it's quite obvious that we are talking about a metaphysical belief system, which is why I talk about Genderism as a neo-religion. In practice, it is simply indistinguishable from religious practices.
It masquerades as a human rights campaign, but that is just part of the proselytism.

This is very very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
transdimensional · 08/09/2021 10:44

@YetAnotherSpartacus

It seems that some within feminist movements are becoming sympathetic to these far-right campaigns. This year’s furore around Wi Spa in Los Angeles saw an online outrage by transphobes followed by bloody protests organized by the Proud Boys. Can we expect this alliance to continue?

Thank you! So not a leading question at all then! Grin

The question definitely shows the interviewer's own views and biases, but I think we have to give Butler enough credit that she wouldn't have gone on an extended rant about feminists and fascism unless that was her actual view and wasn't predicated solely on the assumptions in the interviewer's question.
IvyTwines2 · 08/09/2021 10:43

@YetAnotherSpartacus at both of the universities I attended, undergrad and postgrad, I only had one tutor who was married with children and had tutors who didn't even know how to use everyday household items. I had one tutor who told me, when I said that there wasn't a single woman on the reading list he had just given us, "well, Michel Foucault was gay." I'm glad to hear your experience is different and I'm glad it's changing, but Butler is an academic of the Old School.