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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Judith Butler interview

414 replies

MotherofPearl · 07/09/2021 12:27

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/07/judith-butler-interview-gender?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

Apologies if this has already been posted. I found this troubling to read. Am I misreading this or is Butler saying that GC feminism is fascist?

OP posts:
OldCrone · 23/10/2021 12:46

She doesn't understand the feminist argument against gender. She even says: They fear that men will lose their dominant positions or become fatally diminished if we start thinking along gender lines.

It's laughable. She just makes herself look ignorant, as though she hasn't bothered to research the subject at all. She assumes that any objection to gender ideology is driven by a rightwing Christian outlook. Her blinkered view means that she hasn't considered at all why feminists would object to this ideology.

InvisibleDragon · 23/10/2021 12:19

Oh goodness that article is terrible. At least for once it is written in plain English, so you can follow the thread of illogical leaps, elisions and statements of fact that are anything but.

Indeed, gender comes to stand for, or is linked with, all kinds of imagined “infiltrations” of the national body – migrants, imports, the disruption of local economics through the effects of globalization. Thus “gender” becomes a phantom, sometimes specified as the “devil” itself, a pure force of destruction threatening God’s creation

This bears no resemblance to any GC argument I have ever heard. It is not true that "gender" is linked with arguments about migration (wtf?) or imports (wtff?). And I hardly think anyone is talking about the devil or creationism.

We generally think of sex assignment as happening once, but what if it is a complex and revisable process, reversible in time for those who have been wrongly assigned? To argue this way is not to take a position against science, but only to ask how science and law enter into the social regulation of identity. “But there are two sexes!” Generally, yes, but even the ideals of dimorphism that govern our everyday conceptions of sex are in many ways disputed by science as well as the intersex movement, which has shown how vexed and consequential sex assignment can be.

  • To ask what it would mean if sex assignment is a complex, reversible process is as pointless as asking what if I had wings and could fly. I don't and I can't. Sex assignment is not generally complex and not reversible (in time or otherwise). Beyond a thought experiment, what is the purpose of asking things that are totally unrelated to material reality.
  • I don't think the "Intersex movement" would appreciate being co-opted into this bilge to start with, but no, the existence of people with disorders of sexual development does not invalidate the sex binary. Not does the idea that we can look at chromosomal or hormonal or phenotypic sex - because for people without DSDs these all match. Moreover, this is entirely irrelevant to gender identity, as there is no evidence whatsoever that trans people are more likely than anyone else to have a DSD. (The Tavistock used to do karyotyping but stopped because they didn't find any evidence of DSDs)

Anti-gender movements are not just reactionary but fascist trends, the kind that support increasingly authoritarian governments. The inconsistency of their arguments and their equal opportunity approach to rhetorical strategies of the left and right, produce a confusing discourse for some, a compelling one for others. But they are typical of fascist movements that twist rationality to suit hyper-nationalist aims.
Oh magic. We're fascists again. Burn us at the stake now for wrong-think. No, I'm not a fascist because I believe in the material reality of biology. That's ridiculous. Nor do I support authoritarian movements or governments. I'm fed up with these words being bandied around to make people recoil from these dangerous ideas (that sex exists and sex matters). The rest of this is just projection.

That's just 3 paragraphs, but the whole article is just like this, with each point repeated at least once. I really really hope Jane Clare Jones gets her red pens out for this, because it's just such nonsense.

FindTheTruth · 23/10/2021 12:03

Bloody awful writing with MADE UP NONSENSE like "opponents of “gender” seek recourse to the Bible to defend their views" and "it makes no sense for “gender critical” feminists to ally with reactionary powers" and "As a fascist trend, the anti-gender movement supports ever strengthening forms of authoritarianism". DARVO. DARVO. DARVO.

OldCrone · 23/10/2021 11:43

Archive link to guardian article:
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20211023104137/www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2021/oct/23/judith-butler-gender-ideology-backlash" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20211023104137/www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2021/oct/23/judith-butler-gender-ideology-backlash

FindTheTruth · 23/10/2021 11:38

Butler's done another article.

published just now in the guardian. sorry I can't bring myself to link to it and don't want to. perhaps someone could paste the text?

FloralBunting · 11/09/2021 11:19

I tend to not use fascist that much now, even when discussing aspects of Genderism that are identical, because it's being gutted of meaning.

I'll often use totalitarian instead, because it's more generic and less tied to a specific series of events. And to be honest, what we're seeing isn't specifically fascist in nature, it just shares some mechanisms. The same mechanisms have functioned in China, Russia, America under McCarthyism etc.

Freespeecher · 11/09/2021 10:13

My takeaway from the Butler piece is there really needs to be a moratorium on the term 'fascist' as it's increasingly used for anyone who diverges from 'acceptable' beliefs in any way and thus risks losing all meaning.

Floisme · 11/09/2021 10:06

Thanks for that link Alexis - I've not read it all yet but the NUJ angle looks interesting.

I also like the point that Andy Ngo, who's derided in some circles as not being a 'real journalist', was the one who covered the story like a proper reporter, unlike those charlatans.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2021 10:03

It's by Julian Vigo, she's a female academic who has done a lot of excellent writing on this issue. She has some other great articles and interviews on her substack and podcast on a variety of topics.

AlexisTse · 11/09/2021 07:50

The best take I have seen on Butler and the recent interview and the way media has played into the transgender narrative is this piece. It wipes the floor with the Guardian and journalistic agencies that are signing on to promote falsehoods. This is also super researched. He gets at the Wi Spa incident coverage where witnesses were never contacted.
savageminds.substack.com/p/why-journalism-is-promoting-falsehoods

Fleek · 10/09/2021 20:38

allmywhat you've made my day with that diagram. Thank you

Sophoclesthefox · 10/09/2021 16:36

There’s a lot more laughs in here than I would have imagined being generated in a thread about Butler 🤣 genius parodies, and I am very much enjoying imagining Judy with her massive antlers poking out of her Prius, trying to get her car past her CF neighbour using the power of discursive hegemonic interpellation 🤣 then leaving a pass-agg note on the car that runs to a hundred and thirty seven pages.

FloralBunting · 10/09/2021 15:29

That reddit question is begging for Victoria Wood to be resurrected and turn it into a fake documentary sketch.

I can see it my mind's eye and I've honestly got stitch from laughing. The framed picture by the bed? The mispronounced German? The fact that he got so cross he stormed out and has now gone missing?? It's comedy gold.

dyslek · 10/09/2021 13:59

The thing is that there are going to be many many more WiSpa's. Unless you have experianced how obsessive sex offenders can be, its hard to explain just how obsessive these men are. Its compulsive behaviour, they literally cant stop themselvs.
So as this movement rolls out accross society, and word gets out within certain communities even more than it already has, things are going to get properly crazy. So crazy that it wont be able to be covered up, the general population are going to notice and then go wtf when they find out about the idology behind it.
That the conundrum isent it; you want to force radical change on society by stealth. If you plans go well, people start to notice.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2021 13:53

Do they think that expansion will cut any mustard with TRAs and their allies?

nauticant · 10/09/2021 13:47

I don't think this has been mentioned yet (forgive me if I'm wrong) but the Guardian have expanded their footnote:

Make no mistake, that expansion of the footnote is because on twitter trans activists were outraged that that St Judith's sacred words had been deleted. The Guardian is now alarmed that they've shot themselves in the foot with the only audience they're interested in cultivating. They assume the rest of the audience will simply follow, in a way reminiscent of how Labour viewed the Red Wall.

NecessaryScene · 10/09/2021 13:30

After all the thorough piss-taking above, this feels like lowering the tone, but King Critical on YouTube here spends an hour trying to take the piece seriously, picking it apart.

Fitt · 10/09/2021 13:24

Excellent @MonsignorMirth

MonsignorMirth · 10/09/2021 13:16

Have been waiting for over 20 years for a good place to use this Simpsons gag. Why not now?

memes.yarn.co/yarn-clip/57c83b37-31d9-41f1-bdee-94d830532c22

NecessaryScene · 10/09/2021 13:12

Specialist subject - answering the question before last

dyslek · 10/09/2021 13:07

@nauticant

I like the suggestion that a judge in a trial can give one of the verdicts: 1) this person is not guilty and is a transwoman; or 2) this person is guilty and is therefore a man.

Maybe the verdict could incorporate a process to immediately award a GRC in the event of "not guilty".

So the judge will litteraly creating reality with her words, just like a god. I wonder if the prospective judge realises their new exhaulted status?
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 10/09/2021 12:51

@SimonedeBeauvoirscat

Haha *@Floisme*! I wonder which other great interviews in history would read just as well if the interviewer retrospectively changed the questions?
Wasn't that the plot in a Rumpole story? The case against an allegedly corrupt police officer was based on someone editing the exchange and changing the questions so that the answers were now incriminating?
transdimensional · 10/09/2021 12:37

I don't think this has been mentioned yet (forgive me if I'm wrong) but the Guardian have expanded their footnote:

"This article was amended on 7 September 2021. One section of the Q&A was removed by editors because the interview and preparation of the article for publication occurred before new facts emerged regarding an incident at Wi Spa in Los Angeles. The consequent lack of reference in the relevant question to this development, in which an arrest was made for alleged indecent exposure at the spa, risked misleading readers and for that reason the section was removed. This footnote was expanded on 9 September 2021 to provide a fuller explanation."

KimikosNightmare · 09/09/2021 21:29

@MonsignorMirth

Trying to imagine Butler describing a parking situation without a diagram really IS blowing my mind.

"CF neighbour parked performatively creating a new reality, invoking a power that did not belong to them as a person. I have been 'blocked' - entered into a realm of blockdom, although I did not just choose it - it was not just imposed on me - this has become a socially constructed struggle of negotiation. Make, model and position of parking space are rendered distinct analytically only to produce the realisation that I cannot proceed without CF getting out of my way.

I cannot operate within the matrix of power - would penguin bollards help?"

Your parody is spot on.

This real Butlerism from that article and it's nonsense. It's a completely nonsensical analysis of the action of a judge passing sentence.

The philosophy of why we obey laws and why we confer authority on law makers and enforcers is a legitimate philosophical issue but that's not what she's doing.

At the time I was interested in a set of debates in the academy about speech acts. “Performative” speech acts are the kind that make something happen or seek to create a new reality. When a judge declares a sentence, for instance, they produce a new reality, and they usually have the authority to make that happen. But do we say that the judge is all-powerful? Or is the judge citing a set of conventions, following a set of procedures? If it is the latter, then the judge is invoking a power that does not belong to them as a person, but as a designated authority. Their act becomes a citation – they repeat an established protocol

SimonedeBeauvoirscat · 09/09/2021 18:23

Haha @Floisme! I wonder which other great interviews in history would read just as well if the interviewer retrospectively changed the questions?

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