Transman wins lawsuit agains school board (Virginia) [Title edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

But then what’s ‘girly’ anyway? So I kind of - well I’m not sure what ‘butch’ actually means really. Unfeminine, rough n tough, assertive? Wasn’t really sure of the terminology (my sister would pull a face if I asked her) - or if ‘woman’ is just enough these days (expanding the boundaries etc etc etc).

You just don’t know what words to use these days, do you?

Well I was trying to comment that anyone who tried to turf a woman out of the ladies loos because they don’t ‘look like’ a woman (what the heck is a ‘butch’ woman anyway - women are women) can’t be looking too hard at the ‘non butch’ woman (but my power of language left me at that point)

Apart from the fact that none of what you said really.makes much sense, no one, from.what I gather you're trying to say, has ever (according to media anyway), tried to "turf out a woman" of a female.toilet, "butcj" or otherwise. A 6 foot beard wearing penis havers, however...

Well I was trying to comment that anyone who tried to turf a woman out of the ladies loos because they don’t ‘look like’ a woman (what the heck is a ‘butch’ woman anyway - women are women) can’t be looking too hard at the ‘non butch’ woman (but my power of language left me at that point).
Ah I see.
Also, although "butch" is often used as a pejorative, plenty of us are proud to be butch, so when I describe myself as such, I'm not putting myself down.

Part of me has doubt as to how real this very recently mentioned issue actually is, and how much it is serving a useful purpose in trying to shame and bully women into giving up boundaries against males.

Its only recently mentioned because it is politically expedient for TRAs. There is some homophobia about although I agree with your relative.
But I had to point out that two articles about the same person who says she's had multiple incidents fail to mention her job role and report her as just a random butch lesbian. I find that to be fairly manipulative but it's PNews so

Well I was trying to comment that anyone who tried to turf a woman out of the ladies loos because they don’t ‘look like’ a woman (what the heck is a ‘butch’ woman anyway - women are women) can’t be looking too hard at the ‘non butch’ woman (but my power of language left me at that point).

What is a girly girl?

The 'when you keep male people out of your single sex spaces it hurts women who don't follow feminine stereotypes' is just one of many ways to try and coerce women into surrendering their privacy.

I have a relative now in her 80s, who has all her adult life been out and very much following the 'bulldyke' style, often in leathers and with a shaved head. She has encountered some homophobia, but women haven't been confused as to what sex she was and this isn't a problem she recognises.

Part of me has doubt as to how real this very recently mentioned issue actually is, and how much it is serving a useful purpose in trying to shame and bully women into giving up boundaries against males.

Another part points out that until it became, very recently, a situation where female people began to encounter male people with a sense of entitlement to be in their single sex spaces regardless of impact on them, female people never had to worry about the difference between a masculine expressing female or a male person.

This does not make the need of female people for male people to respect their boundaries and sex based needs go away.

What?

You can’t be looking very hard or you can’t tell a ‘butch’ woman from a girly girl. Really - you must just not be looking or hearing.

If you assume that butch women are being attacked because people are trying to attack trans women using the proper bathroom, ergo your own group, you're correct.
I've clicked on these links and all these women are obviously female. Until you can disprove homophobia, and unless there is some proof this hostility has increased recently, this is just an appeal to emotion.
I'm a very butch lesbian, more so than the women in these articles* and I have experienced women being initially shocked by my appearance in a public toilet. At a second glance most women relax, because they can tell I am a woman and not a man. Very occasionally I will get some homophobia.

*the woman who is referred to in two of these articles as having had multiple issues is reported by PinkNews without mentioning she is "Associate Director of Policy & Research at Stonewall"

It sure is a good thing that trans people have repeated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and OVER, that this has nothing to do with being trans.

I have never reads any article on trans children (including on the Mermaids Charity website) that doesn’t rely on stereotypes.

However it’s true that some adults who identify as trans seem to have a definition of trans that defies objective categorisation because they appear to be gender conforming.

‘Trans’ seems to be a subjective category that can mean anything, which is a bit of a problem when people talk about trans rights.

And how much would they have claims if they had used the men’s facilities and been sexually abused?

It's too simplistic to say it's transphobic to segregate on sex. Facilities are segregated this way for the safety and dignity of the majority of users. You can't simply throw that out. If it's decided not to segregate this way you have to consider if the facilities are still fit for purpose.

Quite.

If someone states, for their sense of privacy, dignity, safety, identity, beliefs and comfort they do not wish to have to change in front of or shower with people of the same sex then absolutely that should be respected. No one should ever be forced to undress in a situation they feel uncomfortable and pressured in: safeguarding 101.

The answer is to absolutely provide them with alternative private facilities, no fuss, no problem. That's inclusion. That's diversity.

For a person to say for reasons of their sense of privacy, dignity and comfort they insist on being permitted to undress alongside students of the opposite sex who will have to change and shower alongside them regardless of their sense of privacy, dignity, identity, safety, beliefs and comfort.....? And I don't care about their consent?

No.

That is not inclusion, that's something else entirely. Other people have rights too.

Bythemillpond. Of course you may be right. I've just never got the sense that it's much of an issue in the UK. I know in America it's hugely contentious. I would have to look up attitude polls on it to be sure. I guess my wider point was just that I don't recognise the popular view of mumsnetters or gender critical femists as an archetype. Especially not one wearing 'sweat pants and a pony tail'.

I'm waiting for someone to try and do this. Claim that they sensed their child in utero was assigned the wrong gender. We've gotten as far as trans toddlers so it can't be far off.

I was on here (I think) talking about sex-selective abortion. A poster was bemoaning the number of embryonic transmen who were being aborted. They weren't joking.

Our sense of biological male and female on the other hand is quite strong - as animals we evolved that way to be able to identify the opposite sex to breed.

Seems to me the "feeling inside" crowd have a very naive understanding of the human mind.

The human mind is shaped by its environment. Our concepts of man and woman, girl and boy are learned not innate. We aren't born with any concepts attached to words in the English language. If some people don't hang those concepts on observed biology, their "internal sense" is being informed by some other associations that they have with the English words man and woman. What can there be except stereotypes?

Franca123
A quick poll on how many contributors to this thread are anti - abortion would be interesting! I highly doubt many if any are?! In my social circles it's virtually non existant. Even my very Conservative mother is very pro abortion

But would anyone know if people were telling the truth.

People say to you that they are pro choice because that is what people want to hear.
The nastiness when someone says they aren’t means you are never going to know if people are telling the truth.

We've gotten as far as trans toddlers so it can't be far off.

Trans babies even, according to Diane Ehrensaft. Babies who are capable of sending a pre-verbal 'gender message'.

Would be absolutely devastating to be a trans kid in school and have to go through the humiliation of being forced into the wrong gendered spaces.

Would be absolutely devastating to be a kid of whatever biological sex and have to get undressed infront of people of the opposite biological sex at school.

Would I have been allowed to register my baby with a penis as a girl? What would happen if I had done that?

But this is what "gender critical" means and those are bad words so we can't possibly consider doing that. Far easier to give kids hormones and surgery and insist spaces are separated by gender, for some reason.