Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

But your broad point is correct - the justification for the male/female separation is to protect females, even if it's not written that way.

This means that the men's category is actually open to all

This is one of those factoids that's only partially true.

Quite often "men's" things are actually open, but they tend to be things run by a body that doesn't do female categories. Things like NBA or NHL in America. They're open.

But where one body does both male and female things, like the Olympics, or the FA, they've often written the rules symmetrically, so men's is not open.

I suspect this was not really a particularly thought-through conscious decision in either case.

The only athletic categories which are protected are age related, disability specific and the female category. This means that the men's category is actually open to all and to access the other categories you have to prove that you meet the criteria. No one would allow a sighted athlete to compete against blind athletes in the Paralympics or a fourteen year old boy in the under 13s. So ,if you don't meet the criteria ,you simply don't compete in a protected category , you compete in the open category.

You have posted that utter claptrap on a site where DSD has been discussed, in depth, by many posters, including a few with DSDs.

We know that your initial premise is unscientific, outdated hogwash that people with DSD find offensive.

Go away.

Do some research.

Come back and apologise for your uneducated blathering.

Maybe then we can discuss the situation in a meaningful manner.

It is always surprising, when going by history it shouldn't be, that the people who come on MN to scold us are usually really poorly informed about the facts. That comes when you make arguments based mostly on emotion.

@NotBadConsidering totally with you on this

Asher-Smith should have the silver medal. Unless the incumbent in that position is also male, in which case the Gold is hers by true right.

It’s worth repeating that intersex ppl (a term many ppl with DSD hugely dislike) are nor a mysterious third sex, they are still either male or female

between male and female

Oh, right, I'd missed that. Yes, Pendhxa, you do have a fundamental misconception here. You do go and need to look into this further.

"Intersex" is an appallingly bad model for the conditions we're talking about. Mbomba is not "less male" than other males. Mbomba just has a development disorder that happens to be in the genitals, and that cosmetically may have misled people into thinking they were female at birth.

Mbomba is basically as male as a man who happened to be born without one arm. The defect just happens to be in the genitals instead. That defect is far less relevant to sport than a missing arm would be.

Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD

Some individuals with 5-ARD have fathered children though, what do you mean by not “sexually mature”? They can still make sperm in their internal testes.

Their external genitalia not forming properly doesn’t make them “between male and female” - it makes them men whose genitals haven’t formed properly, although again there will have been further virilisation at puberty. There is not a single part of their body that is female.

I’m afraid that whilst feminism does centre women and girls, it fiercely discards the rest of humanity.

"Fiercely discards"? Seems weird. But even then, so what?

It's not feminism's job to be the centrist decision maker doing the compromises between all competing interests.

It's feminism's job to represent women's interests to the decision makers.

The governing bodies (or governments, courts, etc) are there to make sure the rest of humanity is not "discarded".

If feminists don't fight clearly for women, no-one else will.

Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD

Mbomba is a fully mature male. Maybe not "sexually mature" in that they may not be able to reproduce, but they've undergone complete male puberty, and you do not play sport with your genitals. Why would you think a genital issue would impair performance in any way? What evidence do you have that lack of penis makes you a slower runner?

You're making bold assertions here that don't smell right in a common sense test.

Like really, “between male and female” - it’s so offensive! Can’t believe you are here lecturing everyone on how best to respect people with DSDs and then saying stuff like that.

Pendhxa I suggest you do a little research into DSD conditions. Carole Hooven’s book Testosterone is a good start as is the Science of Sport podcasts. I’m sure you’re coming from a good place but many of us here have gone and done the research and know exactly what DSD Mboma has and how their biology works in sport.

Intersex people are precisely as the name suggests - between male and female

🤦‍♀️

This isn’t true and many people with DSDs dislike find the term offensive because it suggests that.

It's there, so certain populations are overrepresented, but it's not an insurmountable advantage

If I was allowed to make the rules, I’d keep CAIS individuals in female sport, but all XY DSD athletes who virilise at puberty would be out.

It’s ridiculous to even try to shoe horn them into female categories at all. Even in the distances where restrictions apply, asking a healthy male to reduce their natural testosterone, made from (internal) testes so they can compete as women is just ludicrous really.

I’m afraid that whilst feminism does centre women and girls, it fiercely discards the rest of humanity. Intersex people are precisely as the name suggests - between male and female. Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD, and it clearly isn’t as simple as saying “go in the male category”. There needs to be a category for these athletes and in my view, the creation of this category and the rectification of women’s sports are something that go hand in hand in the interests of fairness and decency for all - women and DSD athletes.

But equally I think people like Christine Mbomba deserve an appropriate category to compete in.

That’s the male category. There’s no evidence that people with this DSD are disadvantaged relative to other males (the ones running in female categories aren’t as good as male Olympians, but obviously most men aren’t.)

If the person you are talking about on Mumsnet had CAIS, that’s different and more complicated. No male puberty there. But it’s not relevant to this. Mbomba went through male puberty. Their body can use testosterone. They can compete with men.

If men with DSDs want a Paralympic category or something they can organise that themselves, but I doubt anyone would bother. They don’t need any special category. They want to run with women because they will win.

It’s just interesting that CAIS athletes seem to have an athletic advantage,

The consensus seems to be that even if they do, it really is an advantage along the lines that sport already accommodates in a single category. The classic Michael Phelps' big feet, or the apparent advantage East African runners have on long distances.

It's there, so certain populations are overrepresented, but it's not an insurmountable advantage. Competition is still meaningful within the category.

Unlike sex; or weight in certain sports. The things that require classification.

It's just that nobody has discussed specifically on male advantage in a female race. After all why would anyone waste funding on that question? Men don't compete against women.

But the knowledge is out there, in many studies over many decades of research.

They don’t.

That's what I suspect - as esteemed philospher McKinnon said, "you don't play sport with your genitals".

But it's possible the DHT issues have other effects.

Like CAIS athletes have a slight advantage over females, so are overrepresented, I can imagine a mirror image where 46XY 5-ARD have a slight disadvantage over males, so would be underrepresented.

But by the same mirror - no separate category for either may be justified. CAIS in with female, 5-ARD in with male.

I've not seen any evidence that 46XY 5-ARD males have a performance disadvantage against other males.

They don’t. They go through a normal male puberty it’s just that their body doesn’t react to DHT as an embryo so their genitals develop differently to other males.

The interesting thing about CAIS is that the last time chromosomes were tested at Olympics, in 1996, CAIS athletes were overrepresented among female athletes, cf their population incidence.

Their disorder didn’t stop them competing, by definition they are completely androgen unresponsive (unlike the DSD athletes like Semenya, Mboma etc who go through a male puberty) and there have been long-standing provisions in the rules, predating the androgen sensitive DSD rules, that have allowed people with CAIS to compete in female sport.

It’s just interesting that CAIS athletes seem to have an athletic advantage, although without chromosome testing at Olympics now their true prevalence at elite sport is unknown.

Is it because they’re generally taller and slimmer, or because they don’t have to train with periods or other hormonal factor or other subtle XY factors that are unrelated to androgens?

Feminism is not for me.

What a strange position to take based in this subject. Feminism is a wide ranging subject but at its heart it centres women and girls. That’s what many posters are doing here. You’re free to disagree, many do, but argue your point, explain why you think what you do and you’ll be listened to even if we disagree with you.