Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

some extra context

Christine Mboma didn't just win, she beat Dina Asher-Smith's lifetime best (set when winning the 2019 World Championships).

Mboma is seven years younger than Asher-Smith

There's been a fair amount of confusion for some time because of the confusion of CAIS with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (there are previous threads that discuss this topic in some detail)

The posters who are adamant that XY = man regardless of phenotype confuse things as well. It’s clearly not, in cases of DSD.

That would be an accurate description of a different 46XY DSD - CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Those individuals do what you surmise - they do not undergo male puberty, and have more clearly female genitalia. And they are permitted to compete in the female category.

Good summary.

There's been a fair amount of confusion for some time because of the confusion of CAIS with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (there are previous threads that discuss this topic in some detail).

I should refresh while I’m reading a thread right from the start so I don’t do what I’ve just done, which is think that I’ll be the first to answer the last post I saw

In people with 46XY DSDs, the fault is that when the genitals are developing in utero, the specific cells responsible for that development don’t respond to the androgens, so they don’t form correctly at that point. Depending on the disorder, the other functions that androgens/testosterone serve operate correctly, so all the rest of the development is along a much more standard male pathway.

I don’t want to be unkind to the individual athletes, but they don’t qualify for the women’s events. It’s brave of Wambui to speak out, but I don’t think a third category is the answer. The appropriate space is the male category, but if the athletes aren’t competitive in that, then that is just the luck of the draw, in the same way that there aren’t a lot of 5 foot basketball players. That said, I have no objection if either athletes with DSDs or short basketball fans want to set out on their own, it’s just not something that I personally would prioritise.

Do we know that those with a dsd experience “natural male puberty”? Surely if they have some sort of hormone or genetic issue that means testosterone doesn’t have the usual effect in utero/childhood and they don’t develop male genitalia, then why would it suddenly behave as normal throughout and after puberty?

The 46XY DSD disorder 5-ARD that Semenya and Mboma suffer from is quite specific. They're deficient in DHT (dihydrotestosterone) which is important to forming the reproductive system/genitalia correctly during early development.

From my reading, DHT does not have much impact on the rest of the body, so aside from genitalia, they are standard males.

They never had any problem with normal testosterone, so when production of that ramps up in puberty, it has all the usual effects. And part of those effects is to develop the genitalia, which means they become more obviously male as the penis develops further. And they get the usual male athletic performance.

Wikipedia:

Many SRD5A2 mutations come from areas of with high coefficients of inbreeding including the Dominican Republic (where people with the condition are called güevedoces - "penis at twelve")

This is what I don’t quite grasp, people seem to be saying that these individuals have a disorder that means they don’t produce or respond to testosterone so don’t develop normal male genitalia,

That would be an accurate description of a different 46XY DSD - CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Those individuals do what you surmise - they do not undergo male puberty, and have more clearly female genitalia. And they are permitted to compete in the female category.

'World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records.'

And the wholly incredible women's word records from 100m to 800m, all set in the 80s by nailed-on drug cheats, speaks volumes about the natural performance envelope of female athletes.

Do we know that those with a dsd experience “natural male puberty”?

The DSD these athletes have (5-ARD) means they don’t respond to the type of testosterone that triggers male genital development hence they are born with ambiguous or female looking genitals however that type of testosterone (I think it’s DHT but could be misremembered) is not part of puberty therefore these males will still respond as normal.

I’m not a scientist so I could have got the details wrong but trying to remember Carole Hooven’s excellent explanation in her book.

I'm not aware of any reason why people who have experienced a natural male puberty can not compete in the open class (aka known as male) in most athletics or other categories but I am open to persuasion based on useful evidence

Do we know that those with a dsd experience “natural male puberty”? Surely if they have some sort of hormone or genetic issue that means testosterone doesn’t have the usual effect in utero/childhood and they don’t develop male genitalia, then why would it suddenly behave as normal throughout and after puberty?

This is what I don’t quite grasp, people seem to be saying that these individuals have a disorder that means they don’t produce or respond to testosterone so don’t develop normal male genitalia, but then somehow at puberty they turn into “normal” males with normal testosterone and react to testosterone the same as any other male.

I don’t think a third sex category is the answer.

Margaret Wambui has called for a third category in athletics

Interesting call that would solve a need if they could persuade the various sponsors and governing bodies to put their money where their mouths are. It would, of course, be pretty much exclusively a category that is for very restricted numbers of people with VSD and predominantly one sex. I'm not aware of any reason why people who have experienced a natural male puberty can not compete in the open class (aka known as male) in most athletics or other categories but I am open to persuasion based on useful evidence.

It wouldn't resolve the issue around other groups who wish to compete in women's categories but that is no more the responsibility of athletes with VSD to resolve than it is women's responsibility.

Margaret Wambui has called for a third category in athletics
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/57239439

"We would be the first people to compete in that category - so we can motivate others who are hiding their condition," she said.

"We could show them that it is not their fault, that this is how they were created, and that they've done nothing wrong."

Even Harper's more recent research confirms the increasing amount of evidence in this area which shows that any loss of sports performance after MtF transition is minimal at most.

I'm assuming it would be harder to apply the same logic to transgender athletes as they will have experienced a diminution in athletic capability?

As Linda Blade indicates in her book, the assumption was based on Harper's self-report study of 8 non-elite athletes.

There's been no support for Harper's assertions from the academic reviews of evidence conducted by researchers or knowledgeable sports commentators.

As a WA representative rather pithily said:

'World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records.'

The fact that the IOC/IAF have allowed them to compete at all in the women's category shows how corrupt and deluded they are.

World Athletics (formerly IAAF - I just looked that up to check) have been trying to keep them out generally. It was the court of arbitration that demanded specific proof of them having advantages in female sports. They were only able to provide it for Semenya et al's distances.

They should now be able to provide it for these distances, but how long will it take? And why on earth is the court of arbitration demanding this?

As a WA representative rather pithily said:

'World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records.'

Is there any evidence that athletes such as Mboma and Semenya with VSDs have elements of their condition which mean they will never be able to compete on a level playing field with men?

We discussed this a bit above. Educated guess around here is no, but I don't think there's been any specific research.

I've not even seen a mechanism proposed for reduced athletic performance. I've found nothing suggesting it in my reading on 5-ARD. Eg Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

At the time of puberty however, they develop striking phenotypically masculine secondary sexual characteristics including partial virilization of the genitals (enlargement of the phallus into a near-functional penis and descent of the testes), voice deepening, typical male musculoskeletal development, and no menstruation, breast development, or other signs of feminization that occur during female puberty.

Middlesexgirl not biologically, the tricky part is they have birth certificates that state their sex is female.

NecessaryScene

The very reason that Mboma and Niyonsaba are restricted to certain events, is because they have far higher testosterone levels than women and have refused to have medication to lower those levels.
The fact that the IOC/IAF have allowed them to compete at all in the women's category shows how corrupt and deluded they are.

Is there any evidence that athletes such as Mboma and Semenya with VSDs have elements of their condition which mean they will never be able to compete on a level playing field with men?

I agree, technically they are awful.

Isn't it strange, how Francine Niyonsaba and Christine Mboma have both had a "meteorite rise to fame" in whichever events they run?
It is almost as if they posess some magical quality which the other women lack.
I hope at some stage the IOC and IAF see sense and stop these athletes competing in the women's category.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

www.letsrun.com/news/2021/09/2021-brussels-dl-recap-dsd-athletes-francine-niyonsaba-christine-mboma-earn-big-wins-sifan-hassan-scares-the-mile-world-record/

"She had a quick rise to prominence in 2012 while still a teenager. The first time she set the record was in late June 2012 while narrowly winning the 2012 African Championships in Athletics in 1:59.11 in what was only her third competitive race. At that, she improved upon her own previous national record of 2:02.13, set in the qualifying round. In the opening round race, the inexperienced runner had opened up a 30 meters lead the pack"

I have to say, Mboma's technique is possibly the worst I have seen from an elite athlete, but they are winning because of their sheer power.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Mboma

Yes, I've not been convinced that any sort of testosterone limit could be meaningfully enforced.

And I do have some recollection that some male athletes had been found to have bizarrely low testosterone levels. Possibly due to recent doping?

Lower-than-normal testosterone levels is not a symptom of 5-ARD, and if they were naturally low, getting down to 5 nmol/l would not be a big deal for them.

I know there's been discussion in previous threads about testosterone testing and how it is susceptible to a number of testing factors including timing.