Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

Semenya was born in 1991.

There’s a definite “XY = male”, narrative on this thread, and not just relevant to sport.

Because it's 99% true, with the only really exception being CAIS, who are not subject to these rules anyway, and are allowed to compete in the female classification unrestricted.

For all the individuals and DSDs in question, they are unambiguously male. The fact they were male may have been hard to detect at birth, as the only obvious visual indication at that point is genitals, and that's where the development issue is, but a man with malformed genitals is still a man, just as a human with a malformed arm is still a human.

“I will not refer to Mboma as female because of a medical clerical error or to “be kind”

Yes. The reason for excluding Mboma is because they are male. That is the reason. We have to be able to say it. Just as we have to be able to say it for transwomen.

Male. Male. Male. Male. Male. That is the reason. I'm sorry if saying it is not "kind", but trying to enter female sports as a male is not "kind" either.

It's an unkind reaction to an unkind action.

Males with 5-ARD have internal testicles from birth even though their external genitals may be ambiguous or female-like.

And they become less ambiguous with age. As mentioned previously, there is an area in the Dominican Republic where the condition is common enough to have a name: güevedoces - "penis at twelve".

who I believe was subjected to checks on genitalia as a teen to “prove” they weren’t male

Where did this nugget come from? If they were subject to any serious checks at that point, they would certainly have been found to be male.

Really we’ve tried to explain to you the DSD that is relevant to the athletes in question and we’ve offered places where you can read up on it. Please do so, because we’ve answered these questions and you don’t seem to believe us.

Males with 5-ARD have internal testicles from birth even though their external genitals may be ambiguous or female-like. So they don’t need to suddenly grow these organs, they’ve always had them.

Right, but in Semenya and Mboma's case, there is no ambiguity, is there? There may have been at birth, but not as an adult. They're unambiguously male, they just deny it

I don’t know. Do they have normal male genitalia and XY chromosomes? Can a child born with genitalia ambiguous enough to be thought female at birth and throughout childhood, and who I believe was subjected to checks on genitalia as a teen to “prove” they weren’t male suddenly grow a normal penis and testicles? As far as i understand you cannot cure or grow out of a dsd.

No one is saying people with DSDs can’t determine how they present, but in terms of sport their sex is NOT ambiguous

There’s a definite “XY = male”, narrative on this thread, and not just relevant to sport.

This male

“I will not refer to Mboma as female because of a medical clerical error or to “be kind”*

And a male without obvious external genitalia regardless of the reason is still a male

They are a person with a dsd. That is why we are discussing their participation in womens sport, not because they are men who have decided to compete as women, which a whole other issue.

I completely agree that they shouldn’t be competing in womens sport, and I don’t have any answers as to where they should compete.

you’d be happy for everyone to tell her she’s male, and it didn’t matter how she felt about it?

Well, that's what happens for everyone. Everyone is male or female regardless of how they feel about it.

How much it becomes a big deal rather depends on how much the individual tries to leverage a claim of not being male. Entering female sports is going to make a lot of people point out you're male, if you are.

Nothing to do with sport, or trans, but if you have a disorder which makes your sex ambiguous then it’s their body their choice.

Right, but in Semenya and Mboma's case, there is no ambiguity, is there? There may have been at birth, but not as an adult. They're unambiguously male, they just deny it.

This is not CAIS, which is clearly ambiguous - genetically male, but phenotypically female.

And the athletics people have been very clear that they are not trying to tell anyone "they're a man" or saying "how they should live". They're just making a sporting classification.

Really yes of course the individual in your example can of course live how they choose, but the reality is if they have a testosterone responsive male body then they cannot compete fairly with women at sport. So yes at that point the reality that their body is male does need to be recognised.

And a male without obvious external genitalia regardless of the reason is still a male

So if your daughter got to 16, didn’t start her periods, and was diagnosed with a dsd and was actually XY, you’d be happy for everyone to tell her she’s male, and it didn’t matter how she felt about it?

I’ve just watched a very interesting interview with a DSD individual. Born in London, didn’t look any older than 30 so in the era of scans and modern medicine. Female. Doctors not worried, no one had any reason to think they were anything other than female. “Normal” appearing vagina and female genitalia. Abdominal pain at 11, diagnosed with a dsd.

Imo it’s up to the dsd individual to choose how they want to live, and it’s not for anyone else to start telling them they’re a man.

Nothing to do with sport, or trans, but if you have a disorder which makes your sex ambiguous then it’s their body their choice.

And a male without obvious external genitalia regardless of the reason is still a male

@notbadconsidering Thank you so much for this information about people with CAIS. I had no idea, and I try to learn all about this kind of stuff. That information about the pole vaulting is just jaw dropping.

I think it’s not beyond the wit of the relevant committees to figure out some sort of grandfathering clause or prospective application of new rules to phase out athletes with unfair advantages due to DSDs without unduly penalising those currently adhering to a system that has allowed this. The political will would have to be there, though, and to start that off we’d have to have the press and the national sporting bodies telling the truth about what’s happening and stop all of this “woman with high natural testosterone” double speak.

We also need good research being done, but again that is being impeded politically, because the national sporting bodies won’t give up their current advantages without a fight.

I have sympathy for any individual exploited by a ruthless national authority, up to the point that individual knows their ongoing participation in a female sporting category is unfair due to their genetic makeup.

But as a PP said, I’m afraid I don’t care very much whether any male individual with a DSD would be competitive in the male category. Elite sport is by definition exclusive, and some of the things it excludes by are health and body type. Them’s the breaks. I’ll never do gymnastics like Simone Biles or box like Nicola Adams but I’m not demanding the rules be changed to make me competitive against them.

Women’s sport is not a consolation prize for men who can’t cut it in their own category, regardless of the reason.

And only some males with DSDs are excluded. Some are allowed to run, for example if they have low enough testosterone levels, either naturally (CAIS) or artificial (by taking the contraceptive pill).

I have no idea why a simple XY vs XX ruling doesn't apply in this day and age where chromosomes can be assessed by a simple cheek swab with no need for the invasive and embarrassing "genital inspections" that were quite understandably hated in the 60s/70s.

Though it seems many women athletes were willing to undergo those invasive tests to ensure fairness, whereas the current XY athletes aren't even willing to take a cheek swab (or at least unwilling to accept the results of such a swab) to ensure fairness.

TurquoiseBubbles, that is a very interesting point. And I am glad that the well-informed posters here are being assertive about the very unambiguous facts of this case. The IOC is completely clear on the various conditions it includes and excludes in its rulings. The athletes that it excludes from 400 and 800 m races if they do not restrict their testosterone are males with DSDs, not females, and their testosterone levels are equal to those of healthy males.

Even in CAIS there is confused evidence. Yes, the people with CAIS don't benefit completely from male puberty as they don't respond to testosterone in the same way as men (as in XY men) do. However, there is some evidence they can be taller, they have different hip alignment, there are differences in heart size and muscle twitch. So it's not a matter of "it's fair that they compete with women", but more a matter of "they couldn't compete with men".

We don't know if people with CAIS are winning medals in women's categories because the IOC doesn't release that information. Which, while being fair to those with CAIS may not be fair to the women who compete against them. It is possible that exceptional elite XX people are being beaten by mediocre XY people with CAIS, we don't know.

It is a cause of hair loss in males - DHT binds to hair follicles and weakens them. Mboma won’t go bald.

Yes, I did notice that while skimming the article. Forgot to mention it :)

Still don't think it merits a separate sports category

Actually one thing I was thinking about - it is actually perfectly possible that we've already had a 5-ARD athlete competing in the male division, maybe very successfully.

For all we know, maybe 5-ARD actually enhances male performance. Perhaps Michael Phelps not only has big feet, he also has 5-ARD, which means no hair loss, and a slight competitive edge.

If a 5-ARD athlete like Mboma or Semenya competed in the male category, there's no reason the fact they had a DSD would ever become public.

From my reading, DHT does not have much impact on the rest of the body, so aside from genitalia, they are standard males

It is a cause of hair loss in males - DHT binds to hair follicles and weakens them. Mboma won’t go bald.