Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

But it's not the overall male advantage - a virilised body.

I agree. But they don't have a female body either, with the hormonal changes and period issues, they have some male structural advantages eg hip alignment, etc, etc.

If the category of women's sport is to be kept for women and girls, and the only way to categorically test for eligibility is a cheek swab for XX chromosomes, then that's the simplest way to go.

A few individuals with CAIS will be disadvantaged, and that will be really terrible for them. But the alternative, as it currently is being done, is disadvantaging many more.

I'm still not convinced that those with CAIS don't have any advantage at all.

Indeed, they may well do. But it's not the overall male advantage - a virilised body.

If you wanted a separate category for CAIS, you'd also want to be having separate categories for "tall". We don't categorise at that fine a level.

Categories are only introduced for basically insurmountable advantages that would dominate. Sex, then weight in certain sports.

Height would be the next thing to look at, before more subtle things like CAIS.

I still think reintroducing the XX only for women's category, with entry proven by cheek swab should be the norm. The fecking around with this is what caused the problem in the first place.

Instead of "allow everyone in unless it's proven they have an advantage" why not move to "XX only unless an individual can prove they don't have an advantage". To jeopardise an entire category of athletes for a very few who have CAIS is very unfair on the majority.

In addition, after reading what I can get my hands on over the last few weeks (which I admit isn't a lot - it's practically impossible to wade through the crap to find the facts online) I'm still not convinced that those with CAIS don't have any advantage at all.

It may be harsh, but given a choice I think all athletes with XY phenotypes should be excluded, full stop. Yes it's unfair on a very few individuals, but the alternative is unfair on the vast majority.

Is there a limit on testosterone levels at all at the shorter / longer distances? Or is it just the middle ones?

The limit for transgender athletes applies to all.

The limit for 46XY DSD athletes applies only to middle distances.

This is not World Athletics' choice - it was challenged in court and they were required to show evidence of testosterone being an advantage in women's events.

They could only show direct evidence for the events Semenya et al had competed in, because those were the only events which had males in at the time.

They will now be able to start collecting evidence about these events, with Mboma, which means they should be able to justify excluding soon.

Yes, this is ridiculous. They actually have to let males run in the events to show they have an advantage.

Is there a limit on testosterone levels at all at the shorter / longer distances? Or is it just the middle ones?

Well argued . I'm of the opinion that xy individuals should not compete in women's sports.

She became the fifth-fastest woman of all time over 3,000m in Paris at the end of August

It is ridiculous. And it's only a story because of the lie. Like headlines about "men giving birth". It's only news because men don't give birth, so it's a "man bites dog" sort of headline.

Except it didn't happen - you've just redefined words to create something that looks amazing, but isn't.

This is "club-level male runner runs nearly as fast as the women's world record". Which is an everyday occurrence!

The only news here is that a club-level male runner is actually being allowed into eilte female competitions. That's what should be being reported.

What would solve it is the sports governing bodies getting together and deciding whether genotype is relevant. Either it isn’t and you can’t compete if you’re xy, or a shit done of research is done to figure out what confers an advantage. Personalky I think pissing about with testosterone levels and putting limits on events is ridiculous. Just decide whether xy is allowed.

I largely agree, but they have done that research. And a cheek swab to check for XY would be step one. From there you'd check whether the condition was CAIS, which would let you through, or not.

As I understand it, the cheek swabs were stopped altogether because they were excluding CAIS, and that was determined to be unfair. They should be reinstated, with extra stages of investigation. Then Mboma and Semenya are caught early, and with far less fuss.

I agree the testosterone limit is ridiculous. If you've got the male advantage, like 5-ARD, you should be out.

But then that same rule has to apply to non-DSD 46XYs too. If they can claim "transgender" to compete, so can 5-ARD 46XYs. You can't leave that inconsistent.

At the minute the 5nmol/l rule applies to both (in athletics).

What would solve it is the sports governing bodies getting together and deciding whether genotype is relevant. Either it isn’t and you can’t compete if you’re xy, or a shit done of research is done to figure out what confers an advantage. Personalky I think pissing about with testosterone levels and putting limits on events is ridiculous. Just decide whether xy is allowed.

There’s been plenty of research identifying and quantifying the benefits of a male puberty to athletes.

We all know tinkering around with testosterone levels is a fig leaf.

Sporting bodies need to stop sitting on the fence and start protecting women’s sport.

Of course this could all be stopped with a cheek swab for any athlete who got to a national (junior or senior) championships in any country

Well no. Under current rules it’s your phenotypic presentation that determines what sex category you compete in, not your genotype. This is why the problem exists.

What would solve it is the sports governing bodies getting together and deciding whether genotype is relevant. Either it isn’t and you can’t compete if you’re xy, or a shit done of research is done to figure out what confers an advantage. Personalky I think pissing about with testosterone levels and putting limits on events is ridiculous. Just decide whether xy is allowed.

Of course this could all be stopped with a cheek swab for any athlete who got to a national (junior or senior) championships in any country.

Then these athletes would know at 16 or 17 and could decide to either compete in the male category, or put their efforts into another career.

I'm sure they are upset. But why is the upset of a few male individuals allowed to be of so much more importance than the upset of the probably thousands of female athletes who have lost out along the wya. Not only olympic medals, money, sponsorship, records, but also national selection.

Is there a girl from a poor background somewhere in Namibia who has lost out to Mboma? Of course there is. A girl who might have won a schools event, who might have got better coaching, who might have been provided with running shoes and travel expenses to enable her to improve her times and maybe get to the Olympics.

All countries want Olympic representation. Why would Namibia support female athletes when there are male athletes who have a better chance of winning, and coaches who are willing to search those male athletes out?

All of the athletic associations to which these athletes belong know the sex of these athletes and know that they have undergone a normal male puberty. They are the ones responsible for exposing these athletes' medical conditions to the world. It is cynical exploitation and they should be penalised for it.

We can have a discussion around dsd’s in sport and advantages it may confer without pointing and shouting “male” until everyone else agrees

That's a repeat of your characterisation of this discussion or more widely?

If it's the former, it's up to you to perform a thematic analysis of this thread plus conversational analysis to make out your case.

I see a lot of frustration in this thread and a desire for clarity in terms. It's a complex area and I'm queasy about the discussion of VSDs because it's something that a number of advocates request not to be dragged into political discussions.

This thread is, however, a discussion of something that was anticipated during the Olympics and has now happened. I wonder if that has contributed to some degree of frustration here. Especially given previous discussions about the history of related controversies in sporting competitions, the prior appalling history of sex testing that arose from that, the introduction of new technology and we still find ourselves where we are today.

There is no excuse for the lack of appropriate research within this area nor the absence of an ethical framework within which it could have been conducted. It buttresses the feeling that the various sporting bodies and oversight organisations have never treated women's sports and competitions with the respect that they accord the men's.

"Male" is not derogatory. I'm male, and it's fine to be male, I assure you

Presumably you aren’t a male with a dsd though. And no, male isn’t derogatory, the way it is used is though.

Mboma and semenya were raised and socialised female due to their dsd. Of course they have a reason to be upset. I take it you don’t know any individuals with a dsd? It’s life changing and very difficult when you find out you aren’t what you thought you were.

We can have a discussion around dsd’s in sport and advantages it may confer without pointing and shouting “male” until everyone else agrees. I don’t know what the terms are- but like downs, autism or any other disorder surely it’s up the affected individual to dictate how they should be referred to.

Two athletes, same age, same coach, same country, same 46XY DSD.
How coincidental is that?
The Namibian Olympic Committee has stated that neither of these athletes is intersex, despite the fact that the World Athletics rules specifically apply to athletes with XY DSD's.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Masilingi

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Mboma

derogatory comments stating they are male

"Male" is not derogatory. I'm male, and it's fine to be male, I assure you.

And I'd still be male if there was something wrong with my genitalia. A freak penis accident is not going to turn me into a woman.

Mboma and Semenya have not more reason to be upset with being called male than me. We're all male because we are male.

If I didn't want to be male, then tough. (And I don't particularly want to be male! I have no strong preference. But it's what I got.)

What do you think I should say about them? That they're female? But that's not true. That they're neither male nor female? Also not true, and something many people with DSDs (not trying to enter women's sports) find offensive.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Comments like this. And “this male”, and other derogatory comments stating they are male if they are xy, regardless of having female presenting genitalia.

Male. Male. Male. Male. Male. That is the reason. I'm sorry if saying it is not "kind"

Just that ranting about them being male, end of, is wrong,

I was so taken aback to learn that somebody had used that phrase in this thread that I ran a search for it and yours was the only return.

It's an odd characterisation to make of a thread with a fair amount of technical discussion but it's not an unusual style some commenters adopt when describing exchanges or conversations between women, of course. (There is a separate thread about this: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4340754-Mumsnet-invented-a-feminism-that-is-rooted-in-female-experience-Honest )

That article is dated 2009, and Semenya would have been aged 18 and post puberty at that point. Semenya set new records in the 800m and 1500m at the African Junior Champs and the testing was done post these records. If the report is true, then yes it does sound humiliating.

However, I’m pretty sure that both Semenya and the team doctor would be aware of Semenya’s primary amenorrhea and it’s likely cause at that point.

The article I read was as a young athlete in SA she was often asked to “prove” her sex bu opposing teams. Can’t find the article now, but did find this:

www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE58F3HI20090916

“we’ve tried to explain to you the DSD that is relevant to the athletes in question and we’ve offered places where you can read up on it. Please do so, because we’ve answered these questions and you don’t seem to believe us*

You don’t know what my level of education is, thanks. It’s not that I don’t believe anyone, or that I think these people should be in womens sport. Just that ranting about them being male, end of, is wrong, especially when no one here has access to their personal medical history or any real knowledge of how this disorder affect them.

You can have your opinion, i can have mine, which is outside of sport we should be treating these people with respect, and not chanting “man” at them as if we know more about their bodies than they do.

Yes, the reason Semenya and others appeared was because sex testing had stopped. After physical examinations, genetic tests in the form of cheek swabs were used, then those too were stopped (in 1999 - had to read some appallingly misleading articles to find that fact, but I hope they got that right).

And that no-routine-sex-screening environment was what enabled Semenya and the other 800m runners to establish a career.