Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

I have no more sympathy for males with reproductive disorders than for any other medical condition. They are not special, and males with reproductive disorders are not women and do not deserve any sympathy for ruining women’s careers. It is reprehensible.

andy I’m not disagreeing.

The fact that Mboma’s times puts them as fastest in the world in the women’s U20 class but 500th in the men’s U20 class is proof of how unfair this is to women (adult human females).

Ekofisk

I am saying that Mboma and the other athletes with the same DSD should not be competing in the women's category, because they have been through a male puberty.

I think it’s useful to view Mboma’s performance in the context of where they would stand in the correct (ie male) sex classification.

It is not outright saying the athlete is male and so allows people to consider the facts without immediately shutting down the argument because of gender beliefs.

Yes. When compared to males, they are not champions. That is the entire point isn’t it. Males. Andy and Eko are both arguing parts of the same point.

Semenya also would have been no where near competitive if they switched to the mens races.

Why do you keep on about Mboma being slower than the World's best men, when Mboma is competing in the women's category?

For exactly the same reason as people on these threads constantly point out that mediocre males are and will continue to dominate women’s sports unless this is stopped.

I was disagreeing with the Let’s Run thread (and a PP on this thread) who reckons that Mboma is fast for an 18 year old male.

Mboma is a mediocre male. 499 other males of a similar age have run 200m faster than them this season.

Mboma only gets airtime because they are a male competing in the female sex classification.

Ekofisk

Why do you keep on about Mboma being slower than the World's best men, when Mboma is competing in the women's category?
At the age of 18, Mboma has broken the U20 women's World records at 200m and 400m six times in the space of four months, despite having absolutely awful technique. The previous World record holders were Allyson Felix and Grit Breuer (Germany suspended for doping in 1992).
I am also aware that the current U20 Women's javelin WR is 63.86m and in 1974, aged 16, I threw 61m at my school sports day using a heavier javelin, 700g compared to the women's 600g.
Semenya, Wambui, Nyonsaba, Masilinga and Mboma all have the same 46 XY DSD, which means that they have been through a male puberty, conferring on them a physical advantage not experienced by any women. They will have higher bone density, more efficient pelvic angle, larger heart and lungs, lower levels of body fat, more oxygen carrying red blood cells leading to a better aerobic system.
These are biological facts, which beyond any shadow of a doubt explain why these athletes need another category to compete in.

The stray apostrophe belongs to the BBC not me btw.

Quote from BBC News article:

When it was suggested World Athletics could broaden the range of events covered by it's controversial testosterone limits, Niyonsaba joked she was ready to switch again.

"I can go to pole vault! Or high jump!" she added.

So no alternative suggestions for the term to analyse the advantages these athletes have? That of being male with a DSD.

What is worse, to refer to them as male, refer to them as people with a DSD and the specific DSD, or to continue to obfuscate the reason they are subject to restrictions and let the world think they are females, which is false?

I don't know whether to be really angry or really sad.

Just looked at the 5.000 race, and Niyonsaba played it safe. Jogging along to blend in. You could see Niyonsaba had loads left at the end and wasn't even giving it Niyonsaba's all to safely cross the line. Guess that is what comes from having a motorcycle in a bike race.

What do you think happened at puberty when they failed to develop breasts and menstruate?

Do you know any elite athletes? It’s not uncommon for their low body fat to delay puberty. Small/non existent breasts and no periods at 16/17 isn’t unusual. My daughter’s squad (in the UK) usually has 1 or 2 girls each year out of 6 not start periods by 16. By the time it’s questioned, referred and investigated they’ve usually started spontaneously, but if not they could easily be competing at 18 without knowing.

But it’s still useful to point out that 499 males of a similar age ran faster than Mboma this season.

The athletes we are discussing will have known they were XY well before competing at a level that requires drug testing.
What do you think happened at puberty when they failed to develop breasts and menstruate?

I’m confused, if these athletes weren’t male we wouldn’t be discussing the unfairness of them taking women’s places and prizes confused

If they were typically male, we wouldn’t be discussing it because they’d be in the male category.

Until a rule is brought in that all competitors above a certain level must have genetic testing, and compete in accordance with their genetic sex, there will be those with dsd’s that are assigned female (or male) at birth and no one knows they are XY until they are drug tested and their testosterone comes back high.

There are only two sexes, and everyone is one or the other. No third sex. No hermaphroditism in humans. No non-sexual humans.

People with DSD are males or females whose sexual development has gone a bit wrong. They are all DSD males or DSD females. And the absence of ovaries and the presence of testes screams male.

What do you think we should say instead of male?

That is the relevant difference, they are male with male physical advantages and they are competing in races as if they were female when they are not.

Or indeed women with any testosterone levels. A doped woman cannot get close to male performance.

Ekofisk

Mboma only took up athletics in 2017. I have no reason to doubt, that if the WA allow this madness to continue, then Mboma will break the WR by such a margin as to put it completely out of reach for women with normal Testosterone levels.