Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

But equally I think people like Christine Mbomba deserve an appropriate category to compete in.

You do have to recognise that the male category is appropriate. To suggest that transwomen shouldn't compete with men is kind of bigotted. Would you say gay men can compete with men?

There is a separate debate about whether they merit a special "restricted" category. You'd have to establish whether there are enough potential competitors, and even whether there is any real sporting performance disadvantage.

I've not seen any evidence that 46XY 5-ARD males have a performance disadvantage against other males. Giving them a separate category may make no more sense than having separate "white" and "black" categories. (Those are potentially justifiable - there are statistical performance differences!)

Now, maybe the only reason is the social one - that they don't want to compete with men - they think they're women, and they think women shouldn't compete with men. But that really is quite regressive. If women were male, there would be no reason to separate them. So if there are male women, having the male women compete with other males, rather than saying "no, you're the wrong sort of male" is inclusive.

But if 5-ARD males really do have a performance disadvantage against other males, and you justify it on that grounds, then a Paralympic category may be justified. But there are LOTS of genetic conditions that impair performance. Why prioritise these DSD conditions? Arguments tend to loop back to the regressive social one previously mentioned.

A Stonewall campaign of "some women are male, get over it" would be appropriate here. Drumming into people's heads that some people who are socially women - transwomen and certain DSDs - are male, and as such compete in men's events, and men and others should get over that.

I did not say #bekind. I think #bekind a load of bollocks in actual fact. I did not say we had to “kindly” allow DSD athletes to be in female events. I said a bit of kindness was necessary to deal with someone who’s grown up female and realised at puberty that they aren’t genetically female and get appropriate categories. Totally twisted my point.

I actually think that the female athletes who have been disadvantaged need to have retrospective correct prize money, medals and ceremonies done. But equally I think people like Christine Mbomba deserve an appropriate category to compete in. I don’t think the rectification of women’s sport should be done in isolation. It needs to be done in conjunction with provision for DSD athletes. Why can’t people see the whole picture? Feminism is not for me.

You're not being at all pedantic nolongersurprised but making a very important point

There are many different kinds of DSD with many different effects on the body. That Other types of DSD exist with different effects doesn’t negate that 46XY exists and that only males can have it

*sorry, should elaborate, allowed to compete in all races without lowering their testosterone

I’m afraid with this particular DSD it absolutely is straightforward. only males can have this type of DSD - 46XY - Mboma is male, has a male skeleton & has been through a male puberty. There are other DSD to which this doesn’t apply but it does to this one

Raised female, found out at puberty. Tried to give their pov, they looked female, female socialisation etc

Sorry to be pedantic, but didn’t that poster have complete androgen sensitivity syndrome?
It’s really important not to conflate different DSDs.

So yes, a person with CAIS would have looked female as they couldn’t androgenise at all and would have remained looking female after puberty.

We know these athletes are subject to the athletic DSD rules which prohibit them from specific races. Therefore, by definition, they are androgen sensitive and go through a male puberty. They don’t look female to me. They also don’t have CAIS as athletes with CAIS are allowed to compete against women.

It's common-sense that a male pelvis is better for running, but there's no data to back this up, mainly because you can't separate the female pelvis from the female heart, lungs, muscle mass etc.

They shouldn’t be in sport. But is isn’t as straightforward as “they’re male”.

Rest of life, no, sure. But in sport, it really is that straightforward.

But the only reason they're getting this blunt "they're male" reaction is that we've already had years of failure to deal with the issue. Patience has run out. We're now at the "yet another male" stage.

these people are not choosing to be the opposite sex

No, but they are choosing to try to enter female sport, where they can take advantage of being male.

If you are male, and don't want to be bluntly told "you're male", then not entering female sport seems like a good way to avoid that happening.

There used to be someone on mn with this condition.

Raised female, found out at puberty. Tried to give their pov, they looked female, female socialisation etc.

Funnily enough being told they were categorically male, no questions, upset them considerably and they no longer post.

I agree individuals with dsd should not be allowed to compete in womens sports. However this isn’t a trans debate, these people are not choosing to be the opposite sex, they have a medical issue which means their sex is ambiguous, and they may well be phenotypically female.

It’s not “being kind”. It’s acknowledging the dsd. They aren’t female, but neither are they typically male, and telling them they are is wrong.

Friend of mine’s child has just been diagnosed with a dsd at 17. In the UK. It’s devastating and they are all struggling.

They shouldn’t be in sport. But is isn’t as straightforward as “they’re male”.

It's all so annoying and as others have said could be resolved in a moment by a simple chromosome test. Only xx female athletes should be able to compete in the women's category.

Male pelvis that should read. Sorry. Just infuriated by the BBC article I just read on it. The BBC is deeply deeply sexist.

Never seen a pelvis like that on a woman. Why are we constantly being asked to pretend we can't see what is clearly in front of our eyes. Of course having a make pelvis gives you advantage when running. Arghhhhhhh.

Everyone has a story. You can't choose one person to be the hero and bend the world around them.

Great point.

Hear hear @NotBadConsidering

It is tragic "Disney"fication.

The "male in the female race" (whether it be due to trans or DSD) becomes the poor misunderstood hero from a 90s-or-later Disney story.

They just want to compete, but society is against them, but in the end they triumph, despite the odds.

Sorry, but that's bollocks. It's the lens you're seeing it through, but the only reason they're winning, and hence the finally triumphant "hero", is because they're male, and hence competing unfairly out-of-category.

Everyone has a story. You can't choose one person to be the hero and bend the world around them.

Try to imagine the stories of the women who've trained their whole lives for this and find themselves against males. This could effectively destroy their entire career. They might retire before the rules bodies put a stop to this.

They wanted to be the best woman, competing against their peers. And people are letting men just steal their chances.

That's not "kind".

Absolutely Currant!! I’m also about the whole “but they were raised as a girl and didn’t know & it was all such a shock” argument. That too is used to emotionally manipulate ppl as if they spent their childhood in skirts with bows in their playing with dolls and then suddenly out of the blue someone said “oh you’re male”. I very much doubt that narrative

Excellent posts NotBadConsidering.

Imagine trying to discuss this issue without referring to the actual sex of the athletes concerned.

Also, #bekind is like wearing a ball and chain while the non-kind can dance around you.

I’m sick of people trying to water down women’s anger by telling us to be kind, think about the poor people with a male sporting advantage. Maybe it’s my ever decreasing oestrogen levels but I’m all out of kindness for males that willing take places, podiums, money and the glory from women and girls.
#nothankyou

One of the biggest reasons I believe this is continuing to happen is that the sporting authorities don't want to completely take away the career of known male athletes who compete in the female category.

They're happy to derail any number of female sporting careers in pursuit of this rather than face the fact that male athletes with DSD conditions are not world ranking athletes when measured against their correct sex class.

If the authorities were to do the the right and fair thing for women's sports they would have to do one of two things, either insist the male athletes with DSDs compete in the male categories or create a new classification for people with DSDs.

If they choose the former they know the careers of those athletes are pretty much done. All the agents and other people who make money from them know this too which is probably why inclusion is pushed so hard.

The latter is a feasible option but it's a longer term strategy and not a quick fix. It would take a number of years to build up a third category, sort out the complexities of different DSDs and for it to become profitable and marketable. This is why it never gets put on the table, it would probably only benefit future athletes and not those here right now.

It is absolutely shocking for these young people to find out that they have a condition that in many countries would have been diagnosed at birth. It is fair to feel sympathy for them, and to be concerned that their lives have been made difficult by a health system that has let them down.

But feeling sympathy doesn't automatically mean they should be given anything they want. The facts are the facts. They may not have known that they are male, but they are. To expect every female athlete who runs at 200m, or 1500m, or whatever events are now being dominated by male athletes is far, far to much to expect even by the most extreme proponents of the "be kind" narrative.

How kind should women be? If they are to allow male people who were brought up as female in order to be kind, must they allow male people who think they are female? Or males with naturally low testosterone levels? What about male people who aren't good enough to compete in the male events but come from deprived backgrounds where winning would make a big difference to their families, should they too be allowed to compete in the women's events?

If there are is to be a female category there must be a simple, provable line drawn. In my opinion the only fair place for that line is genetic - XX only in women's sports.

There's no value judgement in being male. It just is what it is. Quite frankly it doesn't matter at what point a person's DSD is discovered what matters is that the sporting authorities and those athletes do know right now and have done for some time.

Yet rather than set firm boundaries to protect female athletics they allow female athletes to lose out on medals, money and records over and over again.

Male athletes would never be treated this way. Look at the outrage and concern Pistorius and his blades caused. That was one man and he was tested extensively for the slightest hint of an advantage for a long time before he was ever allowed near a competitive race.

How bloody shocking for people with this condition to grow up as female and then to find out they have no uterus or ovaries but instead have internal testes

Yes, but that doesn’t mean they should be allowed in women’s sport. Women’s sport doesn’t exist as a consolation prize

I admire your stance on this issue @NotBadConsidering. My first instinct when I read about this athlete was sympathy because they are being exploited by their agents and federation. However, this is not a matter women should concern themselves about at the moment, only females should be allowed to compete in girls' and women's sport.

Yes it must indeed be shocking and the trauma can only be exacerbated by having your medical condition broadcast to the world. The financial incentives might be considerable but it comes at a cost. However, it also comes at a cost for the female athletes with whom these VSD athletes compete. They too are looking to make a living from their sport and they are being denied this opportunity.